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Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

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Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#531

Post by zemo »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #10
makecheck wrote: post #3

Of all the things about this, the fact that the Fortnite competitor PUBG is now being “featured” by Apple just ticks me off so much. Talk about being petty. Are there school-aged children running the App Store now (or the executive suite?). I realize Apple has the right to decide who they feature but come on . Being featured is important , it’s a big deal and it can make a serious difference to any developer’s income…

The irony here is that PUBG is made with the Unreal Engine, which they're being forced by a judge not to cut off from their platform, and Epic still gets 5% of all revenue from PUBG.

do you actually need to download unreal engine from the app store to build unreal engine games on ios or do gamedevs download the unreal engine tools and sdks on a desktop and then compile their games for ios from the desktop and sign them with their own app store dev accounts and upload them to the app store

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#532

Post by dang »

hawkoy wrote: post #503
dang wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a stub comment to collect the replies so we can collapse them, to prevent offtopicness. Sorry, no-JS users.

I am really curious how this stub comment functionality works on the backend. How does the dashboard looks dang?

I just did it manually. That is, I posted the stub like I would any other comment, and then used a REPL to move the replies to my top-level comment and make them children of the stub. There's no specific code support beyond that, though I've done it often enough that I've thought maybe I should write something. Does that answer your question?

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#533

Post by AlexandrB »

orangecat wrote: post #414
bitxbit wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might be an unpopular opinion but I don’t think they are acting to the level of MSFT in the 90s. What MSFT did would be equivalent to Apple forcing everyone to use its apps and not allow any competing apps. Also recall that Jobs was pretty adamant about allowing third-party apps in the beginning. Now, do I think 30% is ridiculous in 2020? Yes. But it made sense a decade ago when having a half decent working app almos…

Might be an unpopular opinion but I don’t think they are acting to the level of MSFT in the 90s. It's far worse. Microsoft may have played dirty tricks with bundling, but they never prevented developers from distributing competing software. If Microsoft had the control over Windows that Apple does over iOS, they never would have allowed web browsers (for "security", no doubt) and we might be in a Windows monoculture…

But Windows had 90%+ of the market. iOS does not.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#534

Post by drawkbox »

Apple had to not be anti-competitive. If ANYONE else did this they would have the same happen. Even if it was Apple in Epic Game Store. If Apple let Epic willingly break ToS and other small/medium developers would get the hammer, that would be seen as anti-competitive.

Let's be honest, this is what Tencent/Epic want and they want their own store. It was demand #2 on their initial emails to Apple from Tim Sweeney [1].

> Because of restrictions imposed by Apple, Epic is unable to provide consumers with certain features in our iOS apps. We would like to offer consumers the following features:

> 1) Competing payment processing options other than Apple payments, without Apple’s fees, in Fortnite and other Epic Games software distributed through the iOS App Store;

> 2) A competing Epic Games Store app available through the iOS App Store and through direct installation that has equal access to underlying operating system features for software installation and update as the iOS App Store itself has, including the ability to install and update software as seamlessly as the iOS App Store experience.

> If Epic were allowed to provide these options to iOS device users, consumers would have an opportunity to pay less for digital products and developers would earn more from their sales. Epic is requesting that Apple agree in principle to permit Epic to roll out these options for the benefit of all iOS customers. We hope that Apple will also make these options equally available to all iOS developers in order to make software sales and distribution on the iOS platform as open and competitive as it is on personal computers.

Apple's official statement [2]:

> We are disappointed that we have had to terminate the Epic Games account on the App Store. We have worked with the team at Epic Games for many years on their launches and releases. The court recommended that Epic comply with the App Store guidelines while their case moves forward, guidelines they’ve followed for the past decade until they created this situation. Epic has refused. Instead they repeatedly submit Fortnite updates designed to violate the guidelines of the App Store. This is not fair to all other developers on the App Store and is putting customers in the middle of their fight. We hope that we can work together again in the future, but unfortunately that is not possible today.

[1] https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21807251/e...

[2] https://9to5mac.com/2020/08/28/apple-has-now-terminated-epic...

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#535

Post by ryandrake »

mattmanser wrote: post #504
_qulr wrote: post #387

My feeling is that this whole situation is mostly going as Tim Sweeney intended. He was itching for a fight, wanted to sue Apple. The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. Did Sweeney anticipate Apple's threat to Unreal Engine? Maybe, maybe not. But the temporary restraining order did block that threat, at least for now. I don't think Epic ever intended to…

I can't see how Epic wins this. If Stripe can claim Wells Fargo doesn't want to process porn payments, and that's legal, how can an American court rule for Epic? Epic are obviously going to lose, and lose hard, or set a precedent that's going to screw every payment provider in America and open a flood gate for fraudulent payments. You can't force someone to sell something they don't want to, especially because Apple…

Yea, I just don't understand Epic's endgame here. Even if they win, Apple will never let them back on the AppStore. They sued them! If I owned a grocery chain and one of my suppliers sued me, I would never choose to sell their products again in my store, regardless of the outcome. Suing someone is like burning the bridge. What is Epic hoping for here?

Unless they are counting on the judge actually forcing a store to sell Epic's products, which would be a very scary precedent!

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#536

Post by just-ok »

Fej wrote: post #357
notfried wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t need apps on my iPhone to do 100% of all things that apps can do. I am fine with some restrictions, so long as there’s enough reliability, consistency, privacy and security. If there are alternate app stores, I am sure others would make their apps exclusive there and demand you download them through these stores: 1. Facebook will want a store that allows them to build an app that has no ad or data collection…

But Android exists, and has multiple noteworthy alternative app stores (including, relevant here, the Epic Games App) and this has not come to pass; every mass-market app is on the Google Play Store, excepting now Fortnite. Epic previously tried to build out a Fortnite playerbase on Android outside of the Play Store and was unsuccessful in drawing in players, so they had to upload it to the Play Store (which has now…

I would argue that this is because there's far less to gain on Android vs. iOS in terms of data collection and privacy by leaving the Play Store. It's pretty apparent just by perusing the two SDKs how much less information you can gain about devices through Apple's APIs.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#537

Post by [deleted] »

philplckthun wrote: post #519
pvg wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. I keep seeing seeing assessments in this vein but they can't really be right - the courts would have to be toddler-level naive not to see through it. They aren't - here's Judge Rogers addressing Epic at the recent hearing (as reported by Sarah Jeong): "To Epic: Your client created this situation. Your client does n…

Just some thoughts; I actually found this phrasing really interesting, because clearly “you cannot have irreparable harm when you create the harm yourself” is provably incorrect. The judge won’t let this influence the decision on not extending the injunction to the Epic Games contract with Apple because of an earlier point, which is that two separate contracts exist. It’s interesting that this has been addressed with…

[deleted]

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#538

Post by _qulr »

pvg wrote: post #525
_qulr wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic's motion had several parts. The judge denied Epic's motion to be restored to the App Store. But the judge did grant a restraining order to prevent Apple from closing all of Epic's developer accounts. That was the retaliation, and the judge said it fit the criterion of irreparable harm. If Apple had simply removed Fortnite and stopped there, they'd be in a better position legally, and in terms of PR.

I'm not any sort of expert in this and can't really re-litigate what happened at the hearing. It can't be the case, though, that Epic is pulling some clever Grand Admiral Thrawn Hyperpoker move here if every commenter on the internet along with United States District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers can tell what it is after about 3 seconds thinking about it.

The strategies on both sides are fairly obvious. On Apple's side, the strategy is to make an example of Epic, in order to dissuade other developers from becoming "rebels" too.

It all depends on who ultimately wins the lawsuit, and that's up the in the air. It's a fairly high risk strategy on both sides, but it'll pay off for the winner. Apple is probably confident (perhaps overconfident) that they'll win in the end.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#539

Post by snuxoll »

jeremyjh wrote: post #436
pier25 wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think Epic ever intended to release the new Fortnite season on Apple platforms. Epic probably doesn't care much about Apple platforms. 80% of Fortnite players are on console. I doubt macOS accounts for more than 1-2%. https://newzoo.com/insights/articles/newzoos-battle-royale-s...

Sure but a fair few play on iOS. If Apple user revenue didn't matter to Epic why would they have even started this to begin with?

For the same reason they’ve pushed Epic Games Store on PC - they take 5% of gross revenue as royalties for any product that uses UE4 and lower fees charged by distribution channels makes that easier to swallow for both larger and smaller studios.

Mind you, this is pure speculation on my part - but given they consider that 5% royalty paid as part of the fee for every title sold on EGS it seems likely that their goal is to sell more licenses, not just to cash in on Fortnite.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#540

Post by ccktlmazeltov »

oneplane wrote: post #20

Not sure why people are surprised or consider it giant news. > The court recommended that Epic follow the App Store’s guidelines and policies while the case is in progress – the rules they followed over the past ten years until they created the current situation themselves. Epic refused. Well duh, this is a show match court fight of Epic Games not liking the rules and not getting the special treatment they want. No m…

> not getting the special treatment they want

this is pretty dismissive considering Apple is messing with every developers on their platform and their known not to give special treatment.

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