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California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

reuters.com

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Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#541

Post by koheripbal »

wonderwonder wrote: post #442

"At Cisco, the unnamed employee reported Iyer to human resources in November 2016 for outing him as a Dalit to colleagues. Iyer allegedly retaliated, but Cisco determined caste discrimination was not illegal and issues continued through 2018, the lawsuit states." If this is accurate, that's pretty messed up. If a private company, especially one of Cisco's stature knew of any form of harassment and then decided that t…

It doesn't say it was fine - nor that it wasn't reprimanded or that they weren't told to stop. ...only that it ultimately continued anyway.

We shouldn't jump to conclusions. If it went to legal, I would venture to guess that people were at least told to cut that shit out. Legal isn't very tolerant of these things because they know there's liability exposure even if it's not illegal.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#542

Post by RHSeeger »

arkades wrote: post #525
RHSeeger wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree there's some room for argument as to whether it should be recommended or not, but - The headline includes "benefits outweigh risks" - The text notes that "the benefits of circumcision are sufficient to ... warrant third-party payment for circumcision of male newborns" I got downvoted to claiming they said "the benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks". I'm sorry, but... they do. Literally and unambiguously…

Their statement for "third party payment" is industry jargon for "don't ban it," because Americans equate "uninsured service" with "unavailable service." Outside the headline, their strongest position is "don't make it unavailable." And what argument do they make for it? They trawled the data for things like reducing the transmission of HIV - which it does, in third-world country where condom usage is low, antiretrov…

I said

> The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) says the benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks.

You said

> Not exactly.

And then proceeded to write up why you believe they are wrong.

I said

> I agree there's some room for argument as to whether it should be recommended or not, but

and

> I'm sorry, but... they do. Literally and unambiguously.

You replied, once again, indicating why you believe they are wrong.

To be very clear here...

1. They do say the benefits outweigh the risks. Period. That they say this is a fact.

2. I'm not arguing they are right. I'm saying they say it and a lot of people value what they say.

3. I also think that comparing it to FGM is patently absurd, but that is completely orthogonal to your argument that they didn't say what they very clearly did.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#544

Post by dartharva »

tumetab1 wrote: post #431

> allowing him to be harassed by two managers because he was from a lower Indian caste than them. Would be cool if article didn't state as fact that some castes are higher than others and/or that people belong to castes.

how else would you have worded it?

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#545

Post by vishnugupta »

thinkingemote wrote: post #433
vishnugupta wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caste system is pervasive in India. It invades almost every religion in India over time. As an example, here’s what I wrote in another response. This Jati is so pervasive in India that even the non-Hindu religions such as Sikhism and “Lingayat” which were explicitly formed to be away from the Hindu caste system couldn’t escape it. So we now have a few dozen Jati within Sikhism and Lingayats with an overly of Verna.

How about Islam?

India has that covered too. Muslim caste structure is a thing, though not as apparent.

I can’t think of a religion that doesn’t have this structure in India. Maybe Parsee?

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#546

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

hitekker wrote: post #538
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, only one other person (besides you) sank to insults. I've enjoyed the responses, and the responses to responses. I've learned a bit from it. This has been a really good thread, about a topic that has a thousand years of pain behind it.

I corrected you, not insulted you. Caste and class are similar but not the same. Merging the two concepts into one is useful for generating outrage and maybe for bonding, but less useful for understanding the suffering of one society compared to another.

Have a great day!

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#547

Post by ethbro »

michaelt wrote: post #371
raxxorrax wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that performance feedback or reassignment has necessarily anything to do with it. Would you like to be frequently reassigned at your job? I don't know many people who would. Yes, all these things might create entrenched groups, but make working viable in many occupations in the first place. I would take the groupthink in that case too.

In a company that is successful and growing, with new teams and projects and offices, there will be more promotion opportunities per candidate - and fewer situations where they have several strong candidates and an almost-arbitrary choice to make between them. If you're in a sector that isn't growing, or might even be shrinking, I imagine promotions are a lot more competitive... Admittedly, 'reassignment' might not b…

I wasn't so much using it as a proxy term for growth, but rather as a direct description of work culture.

I've worked and consulted at a variety of companies. Of the ones that had an expectation that you do 1-2 year stints on teams, then rotate to different teams and challenges, I would describe ~100% as having a healthy workplace political culture.

Of the ones that did not have that expectation, and people typically stayed on a single team for 2 years+, I would describe ~25% as having a healthy workplace political culture.

My conclusion is that, more-so than anything else, cultivating and encouraging regular internal transfers produces healthier companies. (And that's not even broaching the documentation and repeatability benefits!)

It seems counter-intuitive, and I never would have guessed if I hadn't seen it again and again...

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#548

Post by Broken_Hippo »

ReticentVole wrote: post #249
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to be incredibly careful with the volume of migrants that we are taking in to the West. Issues like FGM, sex-selective abortions, hiring discrimination are becoming established because migrants have come over in such numbers that they have little pressure to assimilate and adopt Western values. Honestly, I don't believe you. This just sounds like the same thing racists and xenophobes have been saying for year…

68,000 victims of FGM in Germany: https://www.dw.com/en/female-genital-mutilation-report-shows... First-generation South Asian mothers in Canada give birth to 142 boys for every 100 girls: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6227816/ There are multiple court cases filed against Infosys and other Indian companies in the US for racial discrimination in hiring practices. These are real issues that we cannot bru…

FGM is horrible, but citing that there are victims doesn't actually mean that it is becoming something established, which was the arguement. We've done an abysmal job at stopping it worldwide, which is the real upwards battle. Again, though, it doesn't mean that it is becoming established in new places.

Same thing with your second link. First generation South Asian mothers in Canada... doesn't exactly mean that sex-selective abortion is 'becoming' widespread in Canada. It simply means that a minority of overall Canadians might do this, and it is higher in a certain subgroup. I honestly don't care about reasons for abortion, as it falls clearly in "none of my freaking business" and would rather simply keep it legal so that folks don't turn to unsafe practices. Again, though, the solution to 'fix' the issue (sexual equality in children) is really to fix it globally instead of targeting a minority in one country. Of course, this is widespread social uplift sorts of things.

Hiring discrimination is entrenched in culture - this is not the only marker for it. Again, there is no need to point out one minority for the practice when it is widespread other places. 'Western values' supports systematic racism and until recently, outright discrimination.

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#549

Post by sachislife »

randomguy2379 wrote: post #312
entha_saava wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a disclaimer, someone may miss that 'some of us' part while reading and think I am saying that as an outsider. You are the anti-brahmin hypocrite generalizing your experience with some of them to blame them. People like you are why there is still lot of SJW bullshit in India. A person with ½ of my competetive exam scores, and double the income easily gets a seat in NIT because reservation based on caste. The g…

For over 2 millenia dalits were not even allowed to enter schools or gain education. Ambedkar was famously the only dalit student in his school. If dalits and other lower castes were not allowed to enter schools for more than a thousand years , then doesn't that mean that brahmins and other upper castes had 100% reservation in education for more than a thousand years? Why complain about reservation now when it was yo…

> For over 2 millenia dalits were not even allowed to enter schools or gain education.

Any source for the 2millenia part?

Re: California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

#550

Post by pseudonymousgun »

walt0 wrote: post #99

I live and work in India and I would like to throw more light on this. Me and my friends like to joke around that you will never get your dues, either pay raise or promotions unless you have the last names jain, gupta, sharma, verma. I had a guy on my team who was very capable but did not have the right last name, he was being harassed for promotions for 4-5 years. On the other hand the manager class was entirely "ja…

Please spare the dalits my friend :) they are the worst affected from this caste based discrimination! :) Sure, there may be a few who engage in the kinds of practices you are referring to but the majority don't. Even if they did, that would be to protect themselves (these kinds of dalits tend to be enlightened about their plight in society and local politics in their organization) and to create checks and balances they engage in this stuff.
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