Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads • Hacker News Board

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#541

Post by syshum » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:40 AM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #96

brianberns wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There may be "reasons", but are they ethical? I'd like an example of such a reason, if you have one.

Older people might be closer to having a family, which means less productivity, high cost (parental leave is very expensive*), and also in areas like SF or mountain view might have high turn-over rate because of the expensiveness of the city, whereas younger people can cram into a room for a decade until that happens. Also many corporate benefits like booze, free food and all that might not have the same premium for…

>>Older people might be closer to having a family, which means less productivity, high cost (parental leave is very expensive*),

The Demo they were targeting is the age group (25 to 36 years old ) is when most people have their first child.

No very many people start a family when they are over 40, sure it happens but it is rare.

If parental leave was a concern than hiring people over 40 should be your priority as most people over 40 will have old children and not be taking parental leave.

People over 50 will likely have Collage aged or old children and need every very little time off for child related events (school events, illness, etc)

So discriminating against older workers because of children seems illogical

>>also in areas like SF or mountain view

Just so you know, there is an entire world outside of SF and Mountain View... I know it is shocking but...

>>whereas younger people can cram into a room for a decade until that happens.

Why would you want to? I am in my mid 30;s now, even when I was in my early 20's I refused to have more than 1 roommate.

I would much rather make 50-75K in an area where I can afford a 3 bedroom home on my own than make 100-150K and have to live in 100 square feet and "cram into a room for a decade"

Each to their own I guess, but count me out of that life style

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#542

Post by lmm » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:42 AM UTC

nhebb wrote: post #201

user5994461 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I'd like to start a business in 3 or 4 years, and I'm seriously considering going out of my way to target people like him. It'll be my competitive advantage. He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that?

As someone in their 50's, that argument makes no sense to me. If I were unable to find a job, you somehow think I'd hold out for premium wages?

Many people in their '50s do; a lot of people are anchored to their previous salary level and would never accept what they see as a "pay cut". And a company doesn't want to hire someone at a "below market" rate, for fear that they'd jump ship as soon as possible.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#543

Post by beaconstudios » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:43 AM UTC

majjam wrote: post #528

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that part - bugs, structure - quickly becomes invisible to higher management, as they start to rake in millions the software issues become only minor hitches in comparison. When a company does well, software problems are easily forgiven - Twitter had huge scaling problems but still grew to one of the largest platforms; Coinbase is having regular problems now and is a multi-billion platform. Code quality doesn't m…

Please can you explain why using microservoces is over engineering? Is it because it’s a relatively new approach? Im getting involved in a new project that is using microservices and a new framework...

not OP, but microservices can cause you to have to spend a disproportionate amount of time writing glue code between services. Starting with microservices is often a case of implementing separation of concern at the network rather than the functional layer, which is IMO too high in the stack. Microservices should be extracted for performance reasons, not build from the start because they are trendy.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#544

Post by nostrademons » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:46 AM UTC

asmosoinio wrote: post #440

leggomylibro wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a race to the bottom. You could pay more for better work that gets done more slowly (fewer hours as people have families, etc,) or you could pay less for worse work that gets done more quickly. Well, iOS11 needs to ship on its annual schedule, non-negotiable. And the SVP will really complain if I ask for more money this quarter. So, cheap it is. If a bridge falls down, it's really obvious and people die. If bill…

> It's a race to the bottom. You could pay more for better work that gets done more slowly (fewer hours as people have families, etc,) or you could pay less for worse work that gets done more quickly. But in my experience, this is not true AT ALL. More experienced people might work less hours, but will produce the actual end results much quicker - both in hours and in calendar time. Especially when considering that l…

In most companies upper management can change their mind faster than junior developers can write bugs, thus invalidating all the buggy code already written.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#545

Post by fsloth » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:46 AM UTC

Fun fact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ageism

Age based discrimination has been us for at least decades, and it has been prevalent in all industries. I presume it's now getting more publicity as the baby boomers are entering the discriminated age segment.

It's a more difficult problem than just a few CEO:s in their 30:s wanting to hire cheap labour.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#546

Post by lmm » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:47 AM UTC

tmh79 wrote: post #29

mc32 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, i dunno. I think it's still on the advertiser to follow the law. Kind of like when some insurance co advertises some insurance product and that advert has to go through copy editors and legal to make sure it does not break any laws (representing product faithfully, not making false or dubious claims) before it gets okayed to be published. In this case HR should consult with legal before putting up job announcem…

Facebook is selling advertising. In this specific case, the product they are selling is illegal. Facebook should be held liable for selling illegal advertising. Do people find this challenging? Is there something wrong with this?

An ad space that will be shown to people in a specific age range isn't and shouldn't be illegal. A few specific classes of ads (e.g. for jobs or housing) are illegal to run in such an ad space, but I would expect the vast majority of ads are legal to run in such an ad space. As such I'd take the view that what Facebook is selling is legal, and if someone is running an ad that is regulated to a higher standard than normal ads then it's on that person to ensure their ad complies with those higher standards.

Imagine a drug advert that didn't properly list the drug's side effects. To my mind that would be the advertising company's responsibility, not the TV station or billboard owner's.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#547

Post by Ygg2 » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:52 AM UTC

majjam wrote: post #528

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that part - bugs, structure - quickly becomes invisible to higher management, as they start to rake in millions the software issues become only minor hitches in comparison. When a company does well, software problems are easily forgiven - Twitter had huge scaling problems but still grew to one of the largest platforms; Coinbase is having regular problems now and is a multi-billion platform. Code quality doesn't m…

Please can you explain why using microservoces is over engineering? Is it because it’s a relatively new approach? Im getting involved in a new project that is using microservices and a new framework...

Did you read Honest status page? If you want your debugging session to reminiscent of a whodunit go with microservices.

If you are doing microservices, I hope you have a good reason for doing so. Because there are significant problems with using microservices.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#548

Post by 77pt77 » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:52 AM UTC

danso wrote: post #3

derekp7 wrote: post #2

Is this different than advertising in a magazine that has a specific reader demographic? Or would that get a company in trouble too, if a the court rules that the intent was to exclude a given group?

It's against U.S. federal law for employers to discriminate against people aged 40-or-over on the basis of age. Having job ads that only younger people could see would seemingly fall afoul of that law: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/statutes/adea.cfm

OK. It's illegal. So what?

What's going to happen to the companies that clearly engage in it?

My guess is nothing and for some reason they think doing this is valuable.

The end result is that they'll keep on doing it until it hurts them in any way.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#549

Post by phkahler » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:52 AM UTC

koliber wrote: post #540

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

It's about costs. If you are a large company and have robust processes in place, you don't need smart people with tons of experience. Such people are expensive. You need average people who don't need to think too much for themselves and can follow directions and work hard. The process is designed to compensate for mistakes and guide inexperienced workers. Thinking in computer terms, the analogy goes like this. A long…

>> If you are a large company and have robust processes in place, you don't need smart people with tons of experience. Such people are expensive.

That was the fallacy put forth in the CMM (Capability Maturity Model) right on page 1 or 2. The notion that process could eliminate the need to rely on experts. There are a couple problems with that. Number one is that there is no process that can solve all problems or write all code. Number two is that those processes are probably not lower cost - they rely on a larger group of people. All you really get from such things is better consistency, and that is often what large companies are looking for. I would argue that having some experts in such places is extremely beneficial at times. I've benefited from them and I've been one in my niche. Without pockets of expertise, a vast group of mediocre people will drift at times.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#550

Post by BjoernKW » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:54 AM UTC

majjam wrote: post #528

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that part - bugs, structure - quickly becomes invisible to higher management, as they start to rake in millions the software issues become only minor hitches in comparison. When a company does well, software problems are easily forgiven - Twitter had huge scaling problems but still grew to one of the largest platforms; Coinbase is having regular problems now and is a multi-billion platform. Code quality doesn't m…

Please can you explain why using microservoces is over engineering? Is it because it’s a relatively new approach? Im getting involved in a new project that is using microservices and a new framework...

Because like any design pattern microservices should be used to address a specific problem. Martin Fowler describes that particular design pattern here in great detail: https://martinfowler.com/articles/microservices.html

Microservices however unfortunately have become a fashionable cure-all that's applied indiscriminately to software projects of all sizes, ages and purposes. Hardly anyone seems to be asking anymore why they're actually using microservices. Everyone uses them because everyone else does.

Microservices always incur overhead both in terms of engineering and network latency as well as maintenance / administration. If you have more than 1 microservice you need infrastructure for orchestrating and monitoring these services.

For all that to be worth it you need to have pretty solid arguments for using microservices in the first place. For a new project I'd usually advise against using microservices right from the start. Doing so is often rooted in the same kind of fallacy that has people worry about Facebook-scale scalability before they even have their first user.

If you start having problems that can be solved with microservices then good for you! This means your software is successful and has grown so much in terms of features and responsibilities it's starting to become intractable with standard approaches.

This is precisely why Martin Fowler argues for starting with a monolith first: https://martinfowler.com/bliki/MonolithFirst.html

A traditional monolith gives you the opportunity to learn about the problem domain first without having to worry about implementation details such as microservices.