Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads • Hacker News Board

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#531

Post by syshum » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:26 AM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #264

nhebb wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone in their 50's, that argument makes no sense to me. If I were unable to find a job, you somehow think I'd hold out for premium wages?

A lot of people in their 50's don't need to work. As long as they bought their home when it was affordable, they are fine. Some have sizable assets that the younger folks can't dream to achieve in their lifetime. They won't accept work for less than premium wages, don't need to. That being said, I admit that there is also another part of the population who is struggling and desperate for work at any price. Last but n…

>>A lot of people in their 50's don't need to work. As long as they bought their home when it was affordable, they are fine

That is the EXTREME minority of people over 50, at least in the US

>I admit that there is also another part of the population who is struggling and desperate for work at any price.

I would not say they are "desperate for work at any price." but most people over 50 need a fair wage for work, and by fair wage I mean a wage comparable to younger people as well

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#532

Post by 77pt77 » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:26 AM UTC

metaobject wrote: post #412

user5994461 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second advice. If you want to pretend that quality matters, move to aerospace, finance, or any critical systems. Third advice. It's not enough to fix bug, everyone MUST know that you fixed that weird bug that customers were complaining about for years and noone could understand the cause.

And make sure to record it so that at the end of your yearly review cycle, and before the raises are decided, you can remind your upper management of your notable accomplishments.

Either it's easily perceived as bringing value or it won't have any effect.

If you have to remind people of it, it's as good as not existing in the first place.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#533

Post by lebski88 » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:28 AM UTC

dorgo wrote: post #467

lemmings19 wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've only ever heard one person ever mention KLOC's, and they were in their 60's nearly a decade ago. They were explaining how people were using it as a measurement of work done in the 80's, and what a terrible idea it was to measure throughput that way. You're the second person. When was the last time you encountered anyone using KLOC's (per 1k lines of code) as a measurement of work done? Are they working on mainfr…

I like to use LOCs to see at a glance the size of a project. A more complex business logic usually takes more LOCs to write it down. And I bet there is a strong correlation between LOCs and hours worked on a project which would make LOCs a good approximation of work done. Actually I should research it. Should be not too hard to find all the tickets for projects and compare the time logged to LOCs.

I think LOC probably works OK as a very crude metric until you start to measure it. Once you start to measure it all hell breaks loose. If you measure me on lines of code, well I can get you lots of lines to code. No problem at all...

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#534

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:28 AM UTC

che_shirecat wrote: post #121

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

highly skilled professions like law, medicine don't have a problem with age discrimination, because of the marginally significant positive correlation between years of experience and results. these fields also weed out the incompetent early. there's plenty of well-paid >50 software engineers out there who have no problem finding work, because they've made a mark in some way throughout their careers in the field or ha…

> most of your average software jobs really aren't that hard, and decades of experience don't really gain you as much as you'd think.

This I agree with strongly, and it's yet another reason why younger people, especially those who just learned to code, could be more liked by companies - they still get excited! Whatever turd you'll present them with, they'll think you're giving them truffles. Experienced people know that most dev jobs are just boring rehash of the same bullshit everyone else does.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#535

Post by bsder » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:30 AM UTC

omginternets wrote: post #503

015UUZn8aEvW wrote: post #67

I'm a grad student at an elite American university. Several weeks ago, some other students and I attended a recruiting presentation put on by a large multinational company I won't name. The woman who gave the presentation services her company's contract with a tech company, that, let's just say, has a big share of the search engine market. She emphasized that she was looking for diversity, because, as she said, "the…

> The woman who gave the presentation services her company's contract with a tech company, that, let's just say, has a big share of the search engine market. If you're being oblique to avoid libel, it's worth noting that libel law doesn't care about whether nor not you name an entity. It cares about whether or not you've identified an entity. Google has been identified.

And if there were multiple people in that audience who concur about that quote, said entity is on the hook for a class action for millions of dollars.

Somehow, I don't think this one is going to get pursued ...

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#536

Post by mratzloff » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:32 AM UTC

lemmings19 wrote: post #468

hackits wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw your post but didn't reply. The work you did probably is great and do I think its above your average developer. Somewhere in the the top 10%. Though how you conducted yourself in the face of management was down right petty/folly. Yes you did the best job in the world. You improved the performance of the serves by % and it did make management of those server's easier. Though you need to think about what you've d…

I have a counter-perspective to provide: Many of the points you've raised are moot outside of large corporate environments and projects. It is likely that the commenter has root access to all of the things you mention and touches them on a daily basis. It is likely that they are not inundated with all of the heavy process you're bringing up. It is likely that all of the security concerns you raise are not even part o…

Yes, but both of these viewpoints are important, depending on the context.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#537

Post by Daycrawler » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:32 AM UTC

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

Software isn't like architecture or carpentry.

First, software engineering and programming are fields with way more skill diversity, which is a nice way of saying that there are a lot of relatively incompetent people in the industry. The assumption that people with experience are more skilled isn't generally true. I've seen people hired for the role of CTO in small startups who were explicitly chosen for their age because it somehow meant that they got more experience, except that they weren't as good as the graduate.

Second, software isn't as critical as other fields because users don't care (or are trained not to care). Your iPhone calculator not working isn't the same as your room's window not closing. Most companies don't really search talent. They just want to hire cheap "talented enough".

In the specific case of Facebook, Amazon, etc, the hiring process is focused on algorithmic and stuff like that a recent grade is simply more likely to get since it's still fresh.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#538

Post by syshum » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:32 AM UTC

baddox wrote: post #220

MilnerRoute wrote: post #191

I want to believe these companies don't know it's illegal to discriminate based on age. Because the alternative is that they're intentionally discriminating -- and thinking they won't get caught, because the ads are only appearing on Facebook. But any government agency that's investigating this can obviously just to ask Facebook for the company's ad buys, and there's an irrefutable paper trail. (It can't be that hard…

Genuine question: is it explicitly illegal to discriminate in your outreach for job applications? Surely similar behavior happens all the time without as much outcry, like recruiting at college career fairs.

On it owns, isolated, it is likely not enough to find a company guilty of discrimination, however it can be used as part of a pattern of behavior to prove discrimination if other actions, inaction's, or behaviors are found to be present at the company

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#539

Post by 77pt77 » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:39 AM UTC

katastic wrote: post #417

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

I'll tell you right now. There is ABSOLUTELY discrimination against older workers. Even though most workers these days don't stay at companies for more than 5-10 years, if a worker is "too old" they think they'll be too hard to train, or "just looking to retire"--even if the length of time is the same. My father is the pinnacle of excellence and professionalism as a plant engineer. Everything that got me ahead of my…

> "He's too old." And one recruiter literally told him that.

How old is he?

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#540

Post by koliber » Thu, Dec 21, 2017, 11:40 AM UTC

combatentropy wrote: post #66

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate against people with more experience. Can someone explain it to me? I have heard that companies like recent grads because they are (1) more malleable and (2) can be paid less. But neither of those reasons seem to me strong enough. I'm talking completely about the company's own interests. Let's address the first reason: malleability. A recent grad presumably will adopt the co…

It's about costs.

If you are a large company and have robust processes in place, you don't need smart people with tons of experience. Such people are expensive.

You need average people who don't need to think too much for themselves and can follow directions and work hard.

The process is designed to compensate for mistakes and guide inexperienced workers.

Thinking in computer terms, the analogy goes like this. A long time ago, servers had to be very powerful and very reliable. Then came cloud computing and redundant architectures. Now, you plug in relatively cheap components into an architecture that can tolerate failure. You no longer buy high-availability components as the system can function around issues seamlessly.