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Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

propublica.org

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Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#191

Post by MilnerRoute »

I want to believe these companies don't know it's illegal to discriminate based on age. Because the alternative is that they're intentionally discriminating -- and thinking they won't get caught, because the ads are only appearing on Facebook.

But any government agency that's investigating this can obviously just to ask Facebook for the company's ad buys, and there's an irrefutable paper trail. (It can't be that hard, since even Propublica was able to put all the pieces together without any special government powers.)

Or is this a case where they're hoping Facebook's commitment to privacy for ad purchasers will end up shielding their illegal hiring practices?

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#192

Post by gerdesj »

derekp7 wrote: post #2

Is this different than advertising in a magazine that has a specific reader demographic? Or would that get a company in trouble too, if a the court rules that the intent was to exclude a given group?

The magazine might have a target market but anyone (within reason) can buy/read it.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#193

Post by trevyn »

wwweston wrote: post #155
trevyn wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rate of change of technological progress is increasing, and many people just have a tendency to... crystallize. Experienced people of any age who can adapt well to change have no trouble getting a job.

> The rate of change of technological progress is increasing Well, the rate of change seems to be high. Whether it's "progress" is another matter. Progress usually implies change, but the reverse is not at all necessarily true. Who's usually in a position to recognize that and be a judge of it? People with experience. So the question I'd ask is this: when someone with experience doesn't like change, is it because the…

Good question! I think it would be useful to try something like Double Crux: (http://lesswrong.com/lw/o6p/double_crux_a_strategy_for_resol...)

Say Person B is proposing a change from Solution A -> Solution B.

Person A thinks Solution A is still the correct approach.

I think it's important to understand in detail what aspects of Solution B are appealing to Person B. It may be subtle, psychological, and/or political, but there's a reason why this change is important to person B. Person A & Solution A must address those issues, or risk eventual obsolescence.

It's also entirely possible that the more correct approach is Solution C, and this process can help establish what exactly that is.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#194

Post by lurr »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #120
leggomylibro wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a race to the bottom. You could pay more for better work that gets done more slowly (fewer hours as people have families, etc,) or you could pay less for worse work that gets done more quickly. Well, iOS11 needs to ship on its annual schedule, non-negotiable. And the SVP will really complain if I ask for more money this quarter. So, cheap it is. If a bridge falls down, it's really obvious and people die. If bill…

I'm one of the greyhairs. I won't work the insane hours, but I'll still get more done. How? By knowing what to write and how to write it, so I don't have to fumble around trying things for nearly as long. By not writing the bugs that the 20-somethings write, which means I don't have to take the time to try to fix them. By not creating the shoddy designs that other create, which then have to be fixed. By having an ide…

maybe they discriminate because you call the designs of other people shoddy.

I'm only being half snarky. Large chunks of these threads end up as people bashing young people for being idiots for various reasons.

I do believe that discrimination is an issue, but you also just don't need that many seniors. If you have a couple to make sure designs are reasonable, catch mistakes, and mentor the junior people then that seems pretty sufficient.

If you have 5 seniors and a junior you get stuff done, but the junior person quits because they don't see any point in sticking around on a team where they aren't being challenged because someone more senior always gets to do it. Someone else will give them the challenge they want. I'm moving on right now exactly because of this.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#195

Post by doktrin »

lovich wrote: post #161
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the greyhairs. I won't work the insane hours, but I'll still get more done. How? By knowing what to write and how to write it, so I don't have to fumble around trying things for nearly as long. By not writing the bugs that the 20-somethings write, which means I don't have to take the time to try to fix them. By not creating the shoddy designs that other create, which then have to be fixed. By having an ide…

What you won't do however, is work insane hours to get something done because management changed scope or requirements at the last second but kept the deadline. The flavor of agile development that most shops seem to devolve to is one where management gets the part that they can update requirements based on new information, but deadlines are the same and costs need to constantly be cut. My personal belief is that our…

As an overworking tryhard chronic cover-upper, this hits dishearteningly close to home.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#196

Post by user5994461 »

Clubber wrote: post #147
user5994461 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I'd like to start a business in 3 or 4 years, and I'm seriously considering going out of my way to target people like him. It'll be my competitive advantage. He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that?

>He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that? So, the only way that is even in the realm of possibility is if the kid was making $30K and the greybeard was making $300K. That's another benefit of greybeards: you get more bang for the buck simply because of the way salaries scale vs. performance that comes with good experience.

Call it 5 times if you wish. That's a fairly normal range.

Costs is more than just salary. 5 weeks vs 2 weeks of hollidays, 401k, health insurance, etc...

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#197

Post by JBlue42 »

015UUZn8aEvW wrote: post #67

I'm a grad student at an elite American university. Several weeks ago, some other students and I attended a recruiting presentation put on by a large multinational company I won't name. The woman who gave the presentation services her company's contract with a tech company, that, let's just say, has a big share of the search engine market. She emphasized that she was looking for diversity, because, as she said, "the…

Thanks for actually noticing that. I think we lack some measure of empathy and observation these days.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#198

Post by danschumann »

I wonder if they thought of it in this light.. or if they just imagined who they wanted and targeted specifically TO them, as opposed to AGAINST older folks. In the law's eyes, it's the same thing, however. Something to remember if you're ever buying ads for hiring.

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#199

Post by walshemj »

avar wrote: post #41
tmh79 wrote: post #15

I'm astonished that facebook is successfully able to pull the "we're a platform, its not our fault people are using it illegally" excuse here. There is a huge difference between allowing people to freely post content on places like FB, twitter, or Reddit, and selling access the attention of people that fit specific characteristics. How long until the tech giants are held accountable for willfully skirting decades of…

If you mainly advertised for employees in certain newspapers you'd get people of a given political leaning. If you advertised on the radio at 6 in the morning you probably wouldn't get anyone under 35. It's not obvious to me why employers should be able to use the implicit filtering traditional media provides, but not the explicit filtering new advertising platforms provide.

But people know what papers specialised in in the UK engineers take the Telegraph as that was where engineering jobs where (Thursday) likewise the Guardian on Wednesday for social work or actors taking the Stage or Variety

Re: Dozens of Companies Are Using Facebook to Exclude Older Workers From Job Ads

#200

Post by lurr »

rglullis wrote: post #167
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of the greyhairs. I won't work the insane hours, but I'll still get more done. How? By knowing what to write and how to write it, so I don't have to fumble around trying things for nearly as long. By not writing the bugs that the 20-somethings write, which means I don't have to take the time to try to fix them. By not creating the shoddy designs that other create, which then have to be fixed. By having an ide…

I totally agree that measuring productivity by the amount of working hours is ridiculous. However, it is important to realize that you are not competing with the 20-somethings or the ones that are fresh out of college. You are competing with the ones that have already a good amount of experience (let's say 7-10 years) but are still in the beginning of their careers. If they are minimally talented, they will probably…

which means you're competing for principal and architect level jobs, which are much more restricted.
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