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Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

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Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#531

Post by drdeca »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #415
Saline9515 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with simulated CSAM is that there is a risk that the viewer develops a fetish for such repulsive practices. It has then destructive consequences for the viewer and, should he try to perform it, his victims. Either way, I don't see the harm of forbidding it. The web doesn't lack regular pornography alternatives, free or paid.

This is the same "violence in video games" argument, no? I'm open to reading studies on the issue, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that simulated CSAM "converts" people who otherwise is not attracted to children.

I don’t know how you would study that specifically, but it seems like there’s a lot of evidence that sexual experiences can contribute to formation of fetishes. Iirc there was an experiment on mice or rats or something where they had them wear some sort of structure the first times they mated and then later on they uh, mated more strongly when wearing the thing than when not wearing it (and I think when not wearing it, produced less emissions than rats or mice that had never been made to wear the thing).

I mean, this seems to be a pattern people have seen in many cases?

I seem to recall something about people in the military developing scat fetishes after repeatedly masturbating in restrooms that smell of feces, due to a lack of other private places?

The phrase “fetish fuel” is a fairly standard phrase I think.

Generally, it’s pretty clear that some fetishes come from somewhere. Like, the “woman turns into a giant blueberry” one seems to pretty clearly trace back to someone’s experience with the scene in “Charlie and the Chocolate Factory”.

And, like, if someone starts out looking at/for breast expansion porn, they’re probably going to be exposed to a far bit of lactation porn as well, and I think there’s a fair chance that they’ll start seeking that out as well? For example.

Why would we expect this pattern to not apply in the case of CP/CSAM?

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#532

Post by pear01 »

gitt67887yt7bg wrote: post #510
garciansmith wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bookstores sell kids books and adult material just fine. The adult stuff might be behind the counter or in a certain area, same as stores like Steam where you have to actively seek it out.

Dedicated porn sites are also being forced by the card companies to pull down porn. Also Steam/itch aren't where this started, they're in the third wave of companies getting held hostage over this. Digital tip jars and direct-payment creator services were hit weeks ago. But the problem isn't porn. That's the low hanging fruit for a massive power grab The problem is that card companies can/will/did blackmail multiple…

I do like bringing up the potential for dissolution. I would add just the general ways in which they profit off distorting the economy for massive private gains, often to the ruin of many individuals.

Credit has become ubiquitous, in a manner that belies its supposed purpose, at least as was originally practiced before consumers were offered and employed credit for absolutely everything.

Then again, governments and "regulated" entities are also capable of blackmail. I'm not sure these private companies would ever have an incentive to care about what you spend their money on unless governments gave them a reason to - which is why this is happening. At the end of the day you run into the same perpetual problem - you want x, some mob wants y. Good luck.

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#533

Post by drdeca »

true_religion wrote: post #320
Saline9515 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with simulated CSAM is that there is a risk that the viewer develops a fetish for such repulsive practices. It has then destructive consequences for the viewer and, should he try to perform it, his victims. Either way, I don't see the harm of forbidding it. The web doesn't lack regular pornography alternatives, free or paid.

Gay conversion therapy, which has an entire society backing it, failed consistently despite trying pairing it with torture and social ostracism. This seems to suggest that broad sexual preferences are remarkably stable.

I would imagine that it is probably easier to make someone find something sexually exciting than to make them no longer find a thing sexually exciting?

When a river had carved a canyon, it is hard to redirect it. That doesn’t mean the canyon was always there.

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#534

Post by orbisvicis »

paulddraper wrote: post #512
rpdillon wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don’t get porn movies on Netflix or Disney stream. You don’t get adult toys in your local grocery store. I'd be more interested in questioning these than why porn is available on Steam. I mean, Disney is essentially an anti-porn product, so I get that, but Netflix is a perfectly reasonable platform for porn. I don't see any reason adult toys can't be sold in Walmart or whatever. > Backlash is inevitable. I don'…

Walmart does sell them. Next to pharmacy.

Same. Some Targets.

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#535

Post by Saline9515 »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #415
Saline9515 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with simulated CSAM is that there is a risk that the viewer develops a fetish for such repulsive practices. It has then destructive consequences for the viewer and, should he try to perform it, his victims. Either way, I don't see the harm of forbidding it. The web doesn't lack regular pornography alternatives, free or paid.

This is the same "violence in video games" argument, no? I'm open to reading studies on the issue, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that simulated CSAM "converts" people who otherwise is not attracted to children.

Violence in video games is quite different from paraphilias. While they usually have an origin deep buried in the psyche, exposure to specific types of porn can act as a trigger and reinforcement to it.

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#536

Post by Saline9515 »

martin-t wrote: post #279
Saline9515 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your propositions are contradictory. If "society" decides to harm itself, and I'm part of it, I'll have to suffer from the choices taken by others.

Are you, personally, harmed by someone having an abortion? Are you, personally, harmed by someone watching porn? Maybe it makes society as a whole weaker compared to other societies but that doesn't mean your society actually loses anything. Countries have nuclear weapons and multi-national defense pacts now. Just because China has several times the population of the US and could win a conventional war, doesn't mean…

The issues you are talking about are not "society-wide" issues requiring compliance of others.

A better example would be to consider that pre-op transgender people, namely MtF, can share the same spaces that were reserved to biological women. For instance in sport. If I'm a woman and now I have to compete with a biological man in MMA because society chose that it's the new normal, yes, I'm going to suffer from it.

If society decides that it's fair to feed Tiktok to toddlers who end up having their neurons fried, I'm going to suffer from it as well when they grew up as they won't be able to do their job well. If society decides that it's fair to allow CSAM everywhere, I guess that a few children are going to suffer as it becomes mainstream.

We don't live in a vacuum.

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#537

Post by RajT88 »

mixologist wrote: post #467

This actually took longer than I thought. It is really weird that for all my adult content I have to go to a dedicated adult store, yet for games I can find them on Steam and gog where kids shop for games. You don’t get porn movies on Netflix or Disney stream. You don’t get adult toys in your local grocery store. Why do we sell porn on Steam? Why haven’t game stores just spin off separate store front for porn content…

> You don’t get adult toys in your local grocery store

In the US at least the classier vibrators have been starting to be sold first at shops like Sharper Image, and now, indeed, grocery stores. The packaging of course would not raise any questions from kids, and they are sold in the same aisles as condoms and lubricant. "Sexual health" is the umbrella term which feels like it is in play.

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#538

Post by godelski »

simplify wrote: post #505
godelski wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Banning porn is not going to do a whole lot. Pornography is illegal in South Korea Yet, there's a lot of porn there too. A whole lot of voyeur porn too. As well as prostitution, which is also illegal. Making something legal or illegal is just signaling. The real part is how it actually is implemented in practice. And as you imply, things are pretty complex. We really need to be careful about our own tendencies to w…

Not being 100% effective isn't backfiring. No law is ever absolutely effective. But making something illegal objectively makes it more difficult to obtain, and is certainly effective at reducing access, even if it's not 100%.

You're the only one who asserted a percentage. So allow me to clarify, when I wrote that comment I had no belief that a law need be 100% effective for it to be a useful law. I also believe there's a lot of room between 100% effective and "backfiring". I don't believe this is a binary situation but there's a spectrum (that isn't one dimensional)

I hope with this added context that my previous comment will make much more sense and you can interpret it closer to what I intended.

I'll just add, I don't think most people work in those absolutes. So I'd be wary of jumping to the extreme interpretation. People might interpret you as being disingenuous and using the logical fallacy "logical extreme" or "reductio ad absurdum". But I'm pretty sure you're not doing that because then I'd be grossly misinterpreting you, right?

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#539

Post by MrGilbert »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #527
garciansmith wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bookstores sell kids books and adult material just fine. The adult stuff might be behind the counter or in a certain area, same as stores like Steam where you have to actively seek it out.

Also grocery stores sell alcohol, and I'm personally more fine with children getting access to porn than to liquor.

I would not agree on this one. Both is detrimental on children’s health.

Re: Steam, Itch.io are pulling ‘porn’ games. Critics say it's a slippery slope

#540

Post by RajT88 »

gitt67887yt7bg wrote: post #510
garciansmith wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bookstores sell kids books and adult material just fine. The adult stuff might be behind the counter or in a certain area, same as stores like Steam where you have to actively seek it out.

Dedicated porn sites are also being forced by the card companies to pull down porn. Also Steam/itch aren't where this started, they're in the third wave of companies getting held hostage over this. Digital tip jars and direct-payment creator services were hit weeks ago. But the problem isn't porn. That's the low hanging fruit for a massive power grab The problem is that card companies can/will/did blackmail multiple…

> But the problem isn't porn. That's the low hanging fruit for a massive power grab

I mostly agree with this. There are legitimate issues with even the biggest and most respected porn sites being very lax with taking down underage and nonconsensual content. The card companies AFAICT aren't being pressured to reform because of this kind of content, but more the LGBT content which is harming nobody.

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