French workers protest plan to increase retirement age • Hacker News Board

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#531

Post by jay_kyburz » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:08 AM UTC

JenrHywy wrote: post #509

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They set a mandatory percentage of your wage which must be put into superannuation For further clarification, it's the employer who has to pay the super contribution, not the worker. And if anyone is about to claim "same thing, if the employer didn't have to pay that, they would pay it out as additional wages", my only response is a heartfelt "lol".

I think "lol" needs to be expanded a bit to be convincing. I can't see how it is not the same thing. The employer looks at the total cost of employment and works out if it's worth hiring someone. If that cost is 10% higher because of super, that means there is 10% less to go to (direct) wages. Now granted, that will differ at different points in the labour market. For minimum wage jobs, I agree that employers wouldn'…

I haven't changed jobs much in my career, but when talking about pay I still find people need to be explicit if they are talking about including or excluding super. Most jobs advertise the pay excluding super, but some will quote total package.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#532

Post by fxtentacle » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:10 AM UTC

notch898a wrote: post #425

gleenn wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding was that almost all countries with advanced economies are experiencing negative growth in producing children. So even if you are right about the nuance in age, go look at Japan. Their population is shrinking.

Purely economically, only a total moron would have a child. Child labor has been outlawed and society says the (grown) child is their cash cow not yours, so the retirement from taxing the kid is spread across everyone else. Meanwhile you're asked to pay the lions share of the investment for everybody else to cash out on. So the name of the game is to let everybody else have the kids and free-ride the fuck out of that…

There's also the aspect that old people will feel bothered by your kids and complain if they have to endure hearing happy kids after 6PM. Even though they were the ones who bought the house next to the playground...

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#533

Post by csomar » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:11 AM UTC

atleastoptimal wrote: post #304

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

So it's everyone's fault but... I don't get it. The system is a ponzi scheme. It was bound to have issues while benefiting the early players. Why not admit that?

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#534

Post by grog454 » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:11 AM UTC

atleastoptimal wrote: post #304

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

> with the oldest generations owning the vast majority of wealth and real estate, and with college, housing, and many costs of living having inflated 3-20x since the older generations were younger, it is a problem.

This is one "benefit" of inflation. Whatever you did 50 years ago in exchange for your wealth isn't worth as much to society today as it was back then, in general. So you can continue to do something productive or hope you were productive enough before you retired that your compensation lasts.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#535

Post by csomar » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:13 AM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #321

atleastoptimal wrote: post #304

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

At some point we have to rethink what "contributing to the system" means. What are web developers designing ads for online casinos contributing?

I think you contribute with real dollars (in Europe case, it's Euros). Whether these euros are derived from a real activity (ie: garbage collection) or a fake activity (ie: finance and eh, politics) or a negative activity (ie: a tobacco company). It's irrelevant.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#536

Post by SoftTalker » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:13 AM UTC

hungryforcodes wrote: post #508

atleastoptimal wrote: post #304

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

But what will you say when you are 60 or 65? These people are not contributing during retirement, but HAVE contributed in the past. In fact people pay (especially in places like France) into a government retirement fund. And this happens over 20-40 years of work. This is a long time and if properly managed, should be fine. So people aren't just being given "free money", this is something that they have paid for and s…

But it wasn’t properly managed. It was spent immediately, with IOUs written to replace it. There is no retirement “fund” in the way that word implies.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#537

Post by jmoak3 » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:16 AM UTC

atleastoptimal wrote: post #304

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

This is summed up nicely.

To add, simply take a look at the % of USA federal spending that goes to Medicare and Social Security, which are benefits for the over 65 population. It's 1/3rd.

1/3rd of Americans are also over the age of 55, which will push that number higher.

We are consuming our young. As a 29 year old, unless technology advances radically and I have positions in the companies controlling it, I will not get what I put in.

There are many advanced economies in worse positions. France for example spends ~15% of it's total GDP on pensions alone.

We can all blame whatever severely rich people exist, however the death by a thousand cuts brought on by too few supporting too many is the root of the issue.

The worst part is, many of these supported elderly aren't even able to live decent lives.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#538

Post by csomar » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:16 AM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #478

matthewdgreen wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were paid to other retirees at the time. Some excess dollars were loaned to the government for general spending, which put Treasury bonds into the "social security trust fund." You in turn received credit that entitles you to receive similar payments when you retire, paid for by then-working taxpayers and by repayment of those bonds (which also comes from tax revenue.) As other posters mention, the democraticall…

Just so you know, I would be happy to end the arrangement, even though it would mean losing my Social Security benefits, which I should come into soon. I think it’s a terrible system. I am just having trouble understanding your terminology.

His terminology makes sense and it hits directly to the core of the problem: It's a ponzi scheme. These people were not saving into "retirements". They were giving their money, freely, for other people in the expectation that the next generation will do the same.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#539

Post by sethammons » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:17 AM UTC

andsoitis wrote: post #487

fleddr wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great comment. The status quo is so bizarre. Human life has no inherent value unless it makes continuous contributions to "the economy". It would be economically most efficient to drop dead on the day you retire. Thanks, human! All of this to keep a machine running that wrecks the planet and everything living on it, including ourselves. Probably some 50% of the economy is pure bullshit that nobody asked for, just kee…

> The economy doesn't work for the people anymore and drastic productivity increases have somehow not really improved our lives in terms of freedom, time, physical/mental health, quite the opposite. If trees could just all agree to remain short, they wouldn't need to waste resources to outgrow each other to reach sunlight.

Watch or read The Hidden Life of Trees and you may have to rethink your imagery. It would appear trees may be "agreeable" with each other.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#540

Post by gtop3 » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 3:21 AM UTC

gymbeaux wrote: post #342

atleastoptimal wrote: post #304

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

But at the same time I don’t want to be forced into paying say $1M into social security and only live to see $200k come back to me

In order to pay $1M into social security you would need to make the maximum contribution for 45 years.

In order to pay $1M into social security and see less than $200k back you would need to die less than three years after starting to collect social security (assuming you don't retire early, which you probably didn't with a 45 year long career).

This is an extreme example.