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French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

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Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#341

Post by nonethewiser »

holoduke wrote: post #337
AceJohnny2 wrote: post #87

The french pension reform attempts have been going on for decades . I remember in the mid-90s a huge, weeks- (months-?) long public transit strike which, funnily enough, kick-started Parisian's interest in roller-blading (and led to the awesome weekly Friday-night roller-blading tour [1]. If it's your thing, I highly recommend it! But be prepared to have to go over some cobblestone sections) France's system has the w…

Who says its not a sustainable system? That is really just a popular assumption. The system is working well at this point with enough headroom. Lobbygroups from the EU and large institutions are pledging for this change. There is not enough workforce according to them. Their profits are endangered. Nobody from those entities are looking at the well being of the citizens.

> Who says its not a sustainable system?

The fact that it’s running out of money

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#342

Post by gymbeaux »

atleastoptimal wrote: post #304

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

But at the same time I don’t want to be forced into paying say $1M into social security and only live to see $200k come back to me

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#343

Post by spywaregorilla »

atleastoptimal wrote: post #304

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

That's just because people died young. The mode (most common) age of death was over 75 in France for men in 1930. I'm not sure how WWII factors into that. It's now about 82, eyeballing it (yes, still higher).

https://www.cairn-int.info/article-E_POPU_1204_0683--the-mos...

People were not "old" and dying at appreciably higher rates given they reached age 60 back then. The general premise that there's a lot of rich old people now is true. But the factors that have raised life expectancy are probably working against this trend, and to minor effect, as they primarily raise the current number of kids.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#344

Post by nonethewiser »

JenrHywy wrote: post #336
justeleblanc wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single pension system has the working population pay for the retirees. Where do you think the money comes from? Thin air? Any increase in the value of pension funds (for example) is coming from the workers.

In Australia, it is a mix. Most people should have a self-funded retirement as a result of mandatory superannuation during their working life. Those who haven't accrued enough can fall back on the aged pension, but this should become less and less common (mandatory super was only introduced in the 90s).

As they should. Everyone needs skin in the game.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#345

Post by lotsofpulp »

76384638 wrote: post #239
ecshafer wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Philadelphia's pension "scheme" is crazy and borderline criminal how its implemented. Pay days on retirement date based on salary in the past several years, absolutely rampant overtime fraud, cronyism abound everywhere. There are plenty of stories of people retiring milking tens of thousands of dollars from fraudulent overtime, getting a one time payment on retirement in the hundreds of thousands, and then getting a…

A federal system sounds like a horrible idea and a really dangerous single point of failure. The consequences of such a system collapsing would be apocalyptic, and forcing everyone into a single system without competition all but guarantees corruption and mismanagement. Social security is bad enough, please don't expand it.

The federal US defined benefit pension already exists, it is called Social Security.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#346

Post by jxidjhdhdhdhfhf »

gymbeaux wrote: post #342
atleastoptimal wrote: post #304

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

But at the same time I don’t want to be forced into paying say $1M into social security and only live to see $200k come back to me

Realistically that's what needs to happen. Wealth needs to be redistributed from the old rich to the old poor. Social Security is meant to be security for the old poor, not a middle class pension.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#347

Post by lotsofpulp »

nebula8804 wrote: post #164
supernova87a wrote: post #156

One big challenge I see with the whole business about pension reform (and government spending in fact) as a public debate is that two sides are talking on totally different planes. In France, and someday very soon, here in the US. And the public in a certain sense, will problematically have to end up voting a simple yes/no on extremely complex topics which are incentivized to push buttons on single issues. cf. Brexit…

Pardon my language but where the f** is all this money going? Is it even humanly possible for a group of regular joes to audit where all the money is going? I think thats the first thing that HAS to happen, a clear transparent audit down to the penny. As a coder, this kind of complexity just drives me up the wall. Also on a side note, I love how sneaky that NY Times article leaves out the option to cut defense . Afte…

https://www.thebalancemoney.com/u-s-federal-budget-breakdown...

For states and cities, see local government websites for reports. Or you can start here:

https://www.truthinaccounting.org/

On the state/city level, all the money is going to former employees for labor performed in previous decades. The scheme is voters today purchase government employee labor for lower cash outlay today hence lower taxes today, then subsequent taxpayers pay higher and higher taxes as the can gets kicked down the road.

The reason this is different from regular old debt is that via questionable accounting methods and actuarial assumptions, the cost of the deferred compensation is presented as absurdly low compared to what it really is. So it does not show up on any official figures anywhere, just greater and greater portions of the government budget go to paying benefits.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#348

Post by nonethewiser »

aetherson wrote: post #102
justeleblanc wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single pension system has the working population pay for the retirees. Where do you think the money comes from? Thin air? Any increase in the value of pension funds (for example) is coming from the workers.

I think a lot of people assume that pension systems ought to or actually do work as savings/investment systems, like private 401(k)s do. So you pay into the system when you're working age, your money is saved, then it is paid out to you later.

> I think a lot of people assume that pension systems ought to or actually do work as savings/investment systems, like private 401(k)s do.

It works more like a Ponzi scheme.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#349

Post by supernova87a »

gymbeaux wrote: post #342
atleastoptimal wrote: post #304

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

But at the same time I don’t want to be forced into paying say $1M into social security and only live to see $200k come back to me

I thought the idea of Social Security was an insurance program to guard against you outliving your means if you live long enough, not an I-get-paid-back cash-out of your payments.

Aren't you having a fundamental misunderstanding about what the purpose of SS is?

And not sure if you know, but the dollar figures are more like:

Max pay into the program: ~$300k over your 40 year working life (if you maxed out the contribution cap, 6% tax on $167k currently)

Max payout from the program: ~$600k (if you draw the maximum when you retire and luckily live a long time, ~20 years)

Not "paying in $1m, and only getting $200k", by a long shot.

I think it's quite in the opposite direction of how you think you're being taken for a ride.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#350

Post by scotty79 »

supernova87a wrote: post #156

One big challenge I see with the whole business about pension reform (and government spending in fact) as a public debate is that two sides are talking on totally different planes. In France, and someday very soon, here in the US. And the public in a certain sense, will problematically have to end up voting a simple yes/no on extremely complex topics which are incentivized to push buttons on single issues. cf. Brexit…

> -- taxes will rise (for whom?)

Is this a real question? Top few percent of capital owners captured nearly 100% of productivity inrease that came from last few decades of technological development.

It's obvious who should be taxed.

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