French workers protest plan to increase retirement age • Hacker News Board

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#471

Post by ticviking » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:05 AM UTC

jonfw wrote: post #351

notch898a wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely one of those "it depends" situations. For instance, you could be illiterate middle school drop-out and pretty easily make very close if not six figures if you worked near minimum wage canning work all year in Alaska or something by working the season of every available catch (16 hours a day lots of OT). And you'd bank all your post-tax earnings as they provide the housing/food normally too. You may work yo…

"Just move to one of the most remote and inhabitable places in the world, work twice as much as average, and you too can join the middle class"

This is exactly how America became America.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#472

Post by tenpies » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:06 AM UTC

grbty_ciul wrote: post #302

BadCookie wrote: post #253

These stats are for the U.S., but one thing that usually get ignored in these retirement discussions is just how massively life expectancy depends on income level and sex: http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/health/ Raising the retirement pension age screws over the poor, especially poor men. Perhaps retirement age should be tied to income/wealth somehow ... and maybe even sex (as controversial as I imagine that w…

in most countries retirement age is tied to sex and yes it screws poor men the most.

The great news is that changing your gender is but one government form away in most of these countries.

It's been done before:

In Canada, to deal with the sexism of car insurance premiums for example: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/alberta-man-legally-cha...

In Argentina, to retire 5 years earlier as a woman: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5544173/Argentinian...

In Switzerland, also to retire earlier, which seems almost trivial given the 1 year difference between men and women, but by spending just 75 francs for the reassignment, they unlock of 28,680 francs of additional retirement over their lifespan: https://www.europeantimes.news/2022/02/a-man-changed-his-gen...

And I realize these sources are not great, but I chalk that up to the fact that this is an untouchable subject for mainstream, a taboo subject for many, and an uncomfortable subject for most of us. These are also still fringe cases, even if the benefits are quite clear. There is also something unsavoury about exploiting the system in this way, but it's counterbalanced by the fact that it's a system that's screwing you over.

In a way I do look forward to cases like these ending up in court, solely because I want to see the decisions that result. Do we get a legal ruling on the mutability of gender? Does gender become permanent at a certain age? Does the court instead decide to deal with each case individually, knowing they could potentially set up a tsunami of cases?

Pragmatically, it seems easiest if you just erase gender from these systems, but realistically that would benefit men which makes it unlikely from the current wave of Western-influenced lawmakers.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#473

Post by Aunche » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:08 AM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #355

bjourne wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point we have to rethink what "contributing to the system" means. What are web developers designing ads for online casinos contributing?

Great comment. The status quo is so bizarre. Human life has no inherent value unless it makes continuous contributions to "the economy". It would be economically most efficient to drop dead on the day you retire. Thanks, human! All of this to keep a machine running that wrecks the planet and everything living on it, including ourselves. Probably some 50% of the economy is pure bullshit that nobody asked for, just kee…

> Probably some 50% of the economy is pure bullshit that nobody asked for, just keeping each other busy.

You mean that 50% of the economy is bullshit that you think nobody should ask for. You and I may agree that developer at an online gambling company is economically useless, but the their boss certainly doesn't and the gamblers probably don't either.

Even if we accept your premise, you can't just assume that tanking the economy will only cut out the useless jobs instead of the useful ones. Useful jobs are perhaps more likely to survive, but that's not always going to be the case. During the next recession, people will more likely give up on a solar roof than give up gambling.

> The economy doesn't work for the people anymore and drastic productivity increases have somehow not really improved our lives in terms of freedom, time, physical/mental health, quite the opposite.

People's lives are objectively improving. It mostly just happening in Asia though. It requires a lot of money to build power plants, hospitals, and water towers, and much of that was financed by selling "useless" trinkets from the West.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#474

Post by matthewdgreen » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:10 AM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #402

Uvix wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No - Social Security for the people who are already retired is paid for by the people who are currently working. Nobody is "paying into" anything.

I am trying to understand this. What were the mini tens of thousands of dollars I paid to the federal government over a period of 40 years in the form of Social Security taxes then?

They were paid to other retirees at the time. Some excess dollars were loaned to the government for general spending, which put Treasury bonds into the "social security trust fund." You in turn received credit that entitles you to receive similar payments when you retire, paid for by then-working taxpayers and by repayment of those bonds (which also comes from tax revenue.) As other posters mention, the democratically-elected government could change the law so you aren't paid those benefits: if that bothers you, you should avoid voting for politicians that want to change the arrangement.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#475

Post by jmyeet » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:11 AM UTC

atleastoptimal wrote: post #304

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

So a lot of people will label you a conservative because that is a conservative take but I've come to understand that you're simply American and your views are normative for an American. American normative positions are inherently right-wing.

Corporate profits in the US amount to about $10T/year [1]. You can and should view this as an estimate of the surplus value of labor that is being extracted. This amounts to $36,000 for every adult (~275M) in the US per year.

We could absolutely afford an unimaginable increase of standard of living for retirees and workers. We simply choose not to.

[1]: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/corporate-profits

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#476

Post by aluminussoma » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:21 AM UTC

cmehdy wrote: post #465

As a French citizen, I find it unsurprising that the usual top comments here are all about numbers. Life expectancy going up, do your part, work work work. That people are angry is not about the damn numbers. It's about the attitude of a political class that had private restaurant dinners behind closed doors during lockdown times where the population was fined for being out walking their dogs, it's about a president…

Thank you for adding this perspective. The news reports we receive do not provide this context so it is easy to think it is only about numbers.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#477

Post by refurb » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:21 AM UTC

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #434

refurb wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody loves socialism until they get back less than they put in.

It's not a zero-sum game. You pay, you receive back all the benefits of a developed society AND the retirement. Otherwise you could keep all your money and live alone in a jungle or desert.

That seems like a false dichotomy.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#478

Post by tomcam » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:22 AM UTC

matthewdgreen wrote: post #474

tomcam wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am trying to understand this. What were the mini tens of thousands of dollars I paid to the federal government over a period of 40 years in the form of Social Security taxes then?

They were paid to other retirees at the time. Some excess dollars were loaned to the government for general spending, which put Treasury bonds into the "social security trust fund." You in turn received credit that entitles you to receive similar payments when you retire, paid for by then-working taxpayers and by repayment of those bonds (which also comes from tax revenue.) As other posters mention, the democraticall…

Just so you know, I would be happy to end the arrangement, even though it would mean losing my Social Security benefits, which I should come into soon. I think it’s a terrible system. I am just having trouble understanding your terminology.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#479

Post by tnel77 » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:22 AM UTC

notch898a wrote: post #425

gleenn wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding was that almost all countries with advanced economies are experiencing negative growth in producing children. So even if you are right about the nuance in age, go look at Japan. Their population is shrinking.

Purely economically, only a total moron would have a child. Child labor has been outlawed and society says the (grown) child is their cash cow not yours, so the retirement from taxing the kid is spread across everyone else. Meanwhile you're asked to pay the lions share of the investment for everybody else to cash out on. So the name of the game is to let everybody else have the kids and free-ride the fuck out of that…

As a parent, you are 100% correct. I love my kids and I’m saving like mad for them, but the future is, frankly, bleak for young people.

Re: French workers protest plan to increase retirement age

#480

Post by makeitdouble » Wed, Mar 08, 2023, 1:25 AM UTC

atleastoptimal wrote: post #304

In the US at least, the original retirement age, set in 1935, was 65. The average life expectancy was 60. Today in the US it's 77.8. In France, it's 82. As populations age into a higher percentage of retirees, the system is forced to cope with more people who are purely consumers, and contribute nothing to the system. In a post-scarcity world, this would not be a problem, but currently with the oldest generations own…

> Giving old people money for free when their 10x more valuable houses inflate the market

Aside from that money not being "free", the important part of your observation is on the housing price and how the market works I think. These are IMO way more important issues than wether elderlies should work until 65 or 95.