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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#531

Post by prutschman »

s__s wrote: post #492
otde wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really tried not to take the bait here, but come on, dude, that last bit was especially rancid. You do get that we’re real human beings with rich internal lives like everyone else and not shallow, opportunistic crossdressers, yeah? I’d be mortified if I worked with someone who thought like this, and I’m glad I don’t.

I think you really misread that and defaulted to an overly defensive and negative stance.

If you think "I'd be better off if I pretended to be trans by putting on a dress" is the wrong reading, then, what do you think the correct reading is?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#532

Post by [deleted] »

didgeoridoo wrote: post #374
nemothekid wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An equally valid hypothesis is that harmlessly blowing off low-level steam prevents the atrocities higher up in the “pyramid”. On what basis are you making your claim that allowing people to openly make offensive jokes prevents higher level atrocities?

Oh I see, sorry. I’m not making that claim. I’m saying that there is equal evidence (none, as far as I know) for that claim as there is for the claim that certain jokes are somehow the structural foundation of genocide. Neither should be given much credence without evidence. The null hypothesis is that jokes neither promote nor prevent genocide , and I see no reason to reject it.

[deleted]

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#533

Post by vxNsr »

jjeaff wrote: post #412
treeman79 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had to quit a company last year due to bigotry. Constant bashing of white men on company calls. Exceptions if you were openly non straight. They also loved talking about how inclusive they were. Constant mocking of customer base, who was mostly traditional white people. I figure out quick I was hired only because they were desperate for someone with experience. Which sadly meant hiring an undesirable. At some point i…

So as a white male, you were in the minority at this company?

But why should that matter?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#534

Post by sol_invictus »

otde wrote: post #463

Bit of a fool’s errand to try and avoid politics at work — like a fish trying to avoid water in the ocean. The ways companies are built and maintained, the relationship between employers and employees, workplace requirements and benefits — all of these are shaped by and and built from political systems, to say nothing of how politics surrounding a person’s identity might affect their worldview. You’re never going to…

It's quite the opposite - it's a fool's errand harboring fragile employees who are willing to make such a show about a email containing juvenile name calling. You cannot build a solid baseline on an employee who can implode any second on the most miniscule issue.

This will hurt Basecamp in the immediate term but over time they will be better off.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#535

Post by hokumguru »

riquito wrote: post #426
mpyne wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence. This isn't the argument actually being made here, so if that's what DHH thought when he shut the thread down then that might explain part of the outcry. The argument is simply that the behavior everyone claims to decry (e.g. racial violence) starts somewhere , far below violence. "Funny names" turn into off-color jokes. Off-color jokes turn i…

> The argument is simply that the behavior everyone claims to decry (e.g. racial violence) starts somewhere, far below violence. "Funny names" turn into off-color jokes. Off-color jokes turn into jokes with a darker edge. Then it turns into "just asking questions", and before too long your organization is acting as much as a group radicalization effort as it is a business. Aren't you (or whoever makes these claims) p…

Is this not just the textbook definition of the slippery slope fallacy?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#536

Post by wmoxam »

arp242 wrote: post #528
wmoxam wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Hutus and Tutsis didn’t start with some off-color ribbing and escalate from there Perhaps it didn't "start" with "off-color ribbing" but the usage of 'jokes' (see: Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines) to desensitize people to hatred towards the Tutsis is well documented. It was unpopular to speak out against this sort of thing, and certainly was something that got worse over time. Further, racial violence…

> Perhaps it didn't "start" with "off-color ribbing" but the usage of 'jokes' (see: Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines) to desensitize people to hatred towards the Tutsis is well documented. And they were made in the context of a general propaganda/hate campaign. The medium is the same, the context couldn't be more different. It's the context that matters 100%, not the medium (jokes in this case) in and of the…

So jokes that desensitize people to hatred is cool?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#537

Post by sol_invictus »

newacct583 wrote: post #520
duxup wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand being hurt and more about the funny names list. But I think things have gotten out of hand when at an all hands meeting people are debating topics like: "we live in a white supremacist culture" Or demands from one employee to another at all hands meetings to denounce white supremacy. I doubt many companies could handle that right... and I'm sure many people would come away more hurt.

We don't know the context, but as to your second item... when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial? I know what you're really saying, which is that people on the right feel persecuted by being implicitly accused of being racists. And... y'know, that's fair. Probably 90% of the time in arguments like this that's an unfounded accusation made in bad faith just to score points. But still... the t…

The hordes going around asking you to "denouce white supremacism" isn't anything to do with white supremacy, it's a power play to subvert. Again, it helps to reverse the roles here to see how idiotic this is: imagine someone going into a black neighbourhood asking regular people to denounce gang violence.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#538

Post by vxNsr »

edoceo wrote: post #416
vimy wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://newdiscourses.com/2021/01/what-is-critical-race-theo...

thanks! I've read that and this part sticks out: ""they assume racism is present in everything and look for it “Critically” until they find it."" that doesn't seem like the scientific method to me. am I the dumb? edit: also the founder of the linked site is critical of Critical Race Theory - so maybe there is bias in this article. Whatever, I asked for a place to start - so, thanks again.

Every thinking person I know is critical of CRT. It doesn’t follow any scientific method, rewrites history and tells many lies to advance an agenda.

It’s basically all target painting.

Edit:I’m getting pretty heavy downvoting without any responses... anyone interested in actually explaining why they disagree?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#539

Post by paxys »

throthro111 wrote: post #160

I feel bad for everyone involved. This story made me realize that working at Basecamp is not something I would want to do in the future, primarily because DHH and Fried are so egotistic. However, it also makes me face the reality that I would not want to work with many of the people that resigned. Resigning over a random employee refusing to say that "white supremacy exists" is absurd. I imagine myself working at som…

A key point not being talked about enough is that the employees quit after being offered 6 months salary as severance, no questions asked. Heck a large chunk of the workforce of the best run company in the world would take up that offer. I imagine few of them actually cared too much about this whole saga.
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