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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#491

Post by golemotron »

CerealFounder wrote: post #261
JPKab wrote: post #209

"But Fried and his co-founder, David Heinemeier Hansson, had been taken aback by an employee post which argued that mocking customer names laid the foundation for racially-motivated violence, and closed the thread." Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence. At some point can we all admit that the most narcissistic, dramatic people are overly-indulged by this garbage? I'm at a startup n…

I have a slightly different take as to what all this is and I havent seen it expressed almost anywhere. Since the proliferation of the internet the world has gotten exponentially more competitive. Information and access have been reduced to almost uniformity if you understand the tools. No while prizes have gotten larger, there are simply way more people competing for the top spot than before. These culture wars are…

> I have a slightly different take as to what all this is and I havent seen it expressed almost anywhere.

Yes, technology can exacerbate the dynamic in Peter Turchin's "elite over-production." This article describes the class dynamic well.

https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2019/11/the-real-class-wa...

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#492

Post by s__s »

otde wrote: post #392
treeman79 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had to quit a company last year due to bigotry. Constant bashing of white men on company calls. Exceptions if you were openly non straight. They also loved talking about how inclusive they were. Constant mocking of customer base, who was mostly traditional white people. I figure out quick I was hired only because they were desperate for someone with experience. Which sadly meant hiring an undesirable. At some point i…

I really tried not to take the bait here, but come on, dude, that last bit was especially rancid. You do get that we’re real human beings with rich internal lives like everyone else and not shallow, opportunistic crossdressers, yeah? I’d be mortified if I worked with someone who thought like this, and I’m glad I don’t.

I think you really misread that and defaulted to an overly defensive and negative stance.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#493

Post by evrydayhustling »

thrownaway564 wrote: post #368
FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> husband Yup. Pro tip: If you're at a SV-influenced company and you find yourself talking about your personal life, don't say "husband," "wife," "boyfriend," or "girlfriend;" say "partner." That signals that you're an Ally rather than an Enemy. You'll notice other weird speech patterns too. Pay attention to them; they're meaningful.

Truth. from the "guidance" page: "More inclusive: Spouses/partners Less inclusive: Wives, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends"

Curious about the context here - is the guidance page suggesting how to refer to your own relationships, or when referring to an abstract group of relationships?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#494

Post by ny2ko »

rsanheim wrote: post #483
Consultant32452 wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at a Fortune 500 company that has gone woke, complete with critical race theory training. I'm literally the only white person in my department. I'm the racial minority. Do you think any of the training even considered that a possibility? Before this change in the company I had never even noticed my race in relation to my coworkers and I absolutely hate them for bringing it to my attention and forcing me agains…

Congratulations, you have an opportunity to experience what it feels like to work in tech as a person of color, or a woman, or any of the many other underrepresented groups in tech. Only those people experience every day at almost all companies, and can't escape it by leaving their existing company. Maybe see it as a chance to learn and grow instead of something to resent and run from?

+1. Couldn't have put this any better

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#495

Post by ironmagma »

treeman79 wrote: post #294
JPKab wrote: post #209

"But Fried and his co-founder, David Heinemeier Hansson, had been taken aback by an employee post which argued that mocking customer names laid the foundation for racially-motivated violence, and closed the thread." Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence. At some point can we all admit that the most narcissistic, dramatic people are overly-indulged by this garbage? I'm at a startup n…

Had to quit a company last year due to bigotry. Constant bashing of white men on company calls. Exceptions if you were openly non straight. They also loved talking about how inclusive they were. Constant mocking of customer base, who was mostly traditional white people. I figure out quick I was hired only because they were desperate for someone with experience. Which sadly meant hiring an undesirable. At some point i…

Seems like a good company to call out by name so that others can avoid it, if it was that bad.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#496

Post by simondotau »

dosethree wrote: post #188
throthro111 wrote: post #160

I feel bad for everyone involved. This story made me realize that working at Basecamp is not something I would want to do in the future, primarily because DHH and Fried are so egotistic. However, it also makes me face the reality that I would not want to work with many of the people that resigned. Resigning over a random employee refusing to say that "white supremacy exists" is absurd. I imagine myself working at som…

"Resigning over a random employee refusing to say that "white supremacy exists" is absurd" The founders effectively took everyone's voice away. I think that's a very consistent way to get people to leave - especially people who for whom having a voice is more important than working at basecamp

> The founders effectively took everyone's voice away

Setting aside the merits of all the underlying arguments, the founders were clearly only talking about their "voice" within the context of their employment at basecamp, not their ability to have a voice in all other possible contexts. And thus the following is a non sequitur:

> having a voice is more important than working at basecamp

Being an employee at basecamp is a necessary prerequisite for having a voice as an employee at basecamp.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#497

Post by 1123581321 »

jjeaff wrote: post #412
treeman79 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had to quit a company last year due to bigotry. Constant bashing of white men on company calls. Exceptions if you were openly non straight. They also loved talking about how inclusive they were. Constant mocking of customer base, who was mostly traditional white people. I figure out quick I was hired only because they were desperate for someone with experience. Which sadly meant hiring an undesirable. At some point i…

So as a white male, you were in the minority at this company?

This misconduct happens regardless of the demographics. It just depends on how much abuse and vitriol management allows and encourages.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#498

Post by s__s »

SantalBlush wrote: post #464
stjohnswarts wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointing out that cancel culture is toxic and that free speech still has a place in polite isn't a bad thing. Academia really has a problem with siloing those of a different opinion and apparently it is extending to tech companies as well. I mostly just refuse to talk about that stuff at work. If it's not work related or "guess what I did last weekend" I'm not really interested.

I keep reading the term "free speech" being brought up in these discussions. Some people have come to believe that free speech means "I can say what I want and nobody is allowed to respond negatively." But this definition is, ironically, the polar opposite of free speech.

Free speech by necessity requires tolerance. If there are extreme consequences to what you say you’re obviously not free to speak what you believe.

Losing your livelihood, being bullied, death threats, mob harassment etc are not acceptable responses to ideas or opinions you don’t like.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#499

Post by otde »

s__s wrote: post #492
otde wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really tried not to take the bait here, but come on, dude, that last bit was especially rancid. You do get that we’re real human beings with rich internal lives like everyone else and not shallow, opportunistic crossdressers, yeah? I’d be mortified if I worked with someone who thought like this, and I’m glad I don’t.

I think you really misread that and defaulted to an overly defensive and negative stance.

On what planet does “I may need to put on a dress” not read as “if I pretend to be trans, I’ll have an easier time getting a job?”

“Pretending to be trans for (reason)” is a really really common way to mock trans people and I think you know that.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#500

Post by benjohnson »

BurningFrog wrote: post #353
mpyne wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence. This isn't the argument actually being made here, so if that's what DHH thought when he shut the thread down then that might explain part of the outcry. The argument is simply that the behavior everyone claims to decry (e.g. racial violence) starts somewhere , far below violence. "Funny names" turn into off-color jokes. Off-color jokes turn i…

> "The argument is simply that the behavior everyone claims to decry (e.g. racial violence) starts somewhere, far below violence. "Funny names" turn into off-color jokes. Off-color jokes turn into jokes with a darker edge. Then it turns into..." If this is such a common path, why have I never heard of it happening? How common is this chain of events? What are some documented cases?

Thankfully it doesn't happen at all or we have a genocide for every comedian.
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