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Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

reuters.com

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Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#531

Post by sonthonax »

KaiserPro wrote: post #179
aborsy wrote: post #134

Working in France completely changed my view of unions. I sure hope the horrors I saw won’t happen to Tesla.

And yet, the level of inequity in france is nowhere near as much as USA. Sure there arn't as many mega rich, but then there arn't people hundreds of thousands of people being bankrupted by medical bills either.

Depends how you define equitable. Equity isn't just the GINI coefficient, it's also about social mobility. France is pretty spectacular in how the GINI coefficient is fairly low, but social mobility is arguably lower than it in more fiscally 'unequal' societies like the USA.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#532

Post by [deleted] »

iliketosleep wrote: post #517
postpawl wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“death of entire industries” What industry? Maybe we need to open a gigantic can of worms that “runs counter to globalization” if we’re talking about sending those jobs to countries with unethical working conditions.

> What industry? There are many examples in the manufacturing industry, though unions aren't the only factor. > Maybe we need to open a gigantic can of worms that “runs counter to globalization” if we’re talking about sending those jobs to countries with unethical working conditions. I couldn't agree more, the problem is there are powerful interests that will keep trying to sweep this issue under the rug.

[deleted]

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#533

Post by sonthonax »

kergonath wrote: post #423
karaterobot wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the yellow vest protests have been going on for two and a half years now, I would not hold up France as a model for income equality. The U.S. may be a decade in advance of most countries in this respect, but there's no indication I can find that France has the problem solved with its approach.

> there's no indication I can find that France has the problem solved with its approach They certainly haven’t. However, the yellow vests movement fizzled out a long time ago. And union-bashing certainly isn’t the way to go if you care about equality, however imperfect they are.

Unions in France also are kinda racist; those shut out of the union system, that is menial workers, don't have a path into the same protections that unionised workers have.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#534

Post by pmorici »

boublepop wrote: post #471
pmorici wrote: post #295

Calling this tweet "anti-union" seems like spin. It is pointing out facts that one might want to consider before deciding to unionize. The fact that employees lose stock options when they unionize isn't so much a threat as it is a fact about how unions work because historically unions are against any kind of incentive or merit pay so they refuse options as compensation. It is a fact that UAW hasn't negotiated options…

Weather unions would be anti stock option or not is debatable, certainly not a fact, and the tweet is absolutely clear cut a threat that workers would lose them if they unionized independent of what the union would do.

Can you cite any instance where a union representing blue collar workers has negotiated stock options or similar stock based compensation as part of their member's pay package?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#535

Post by Tialco »

ResearchCode wrote: post #527
missedthecue wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it have to be zero sum?

Your power in society is zero sum. Giving it all away to an oligarch in exchange for promises of cheap consumer goods is not an credible bargain.

Unfortunately all you crazies are obsessed with power.

Focus on wealth, that's far more important and impactful on people's lives.

The world has gotten far wealthier over the last 100 years.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#536

Post by rlonn »

nailer wrote: post #518
ipaddr wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions don't kill industries because in many cases union and non-union companies serve an industry at the same time. Free trade moves industries elsewhere. But actually killing an industry: technology, war, social changes, demand and laws that outlaw things.

Free trade is often used to move work to countries without unions. Not advocating either position here, just pointing this out.

Yes, so unions tend to kill countries where they're too strong. They tend to promote short-sighted action that save/retain existing jobs. This makes it harder for the economy to change when it is needed which in the long run leads to failed businesses, an uncompetitive work force and unemployment. Maybe unions is like democracy in that they totally suck, but the alternatives are worse. However, unions should definitely have their power checked.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#537

Post by Aerroon »

door100 wrote: post #487
baud147258 wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or the deadwood that gets protected because they belong to an union. Or unions being against remote work because that'd reduce employee control. Or union leadership just using their membership to laze around. Or union opposing projects they don't like. Or union harassing (including physically) managers. And to say nothing of railway union who apparently have a Mission to gridlock the country every few years (usually…

Even if all of these were true (I would describe most of them as a mischaracterization at best), do you honestly think that outweighs everything that I described? The worst thing that people can say about unions is they are bureaucratic and inconvenient. The worst things people can say about, say, working conditions in many non-unionized American workplaces are far, far worse. People dying, unfairly losing their job…

There's also 'bossnapping': https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-bossnapping-idUSBR...

I'm not sure I'd characterize this as anything reasonable. At what point does this warrant self defense by the people stuck?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#538

Post by lazyweb »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #523

Unpopular opinion and it's not applicable to the US. Because it's unpopular, it also won't get discussed anywhere... ( My perception could obviously be wrong, bit it would get silenced immediately for bringing it up) We have a powerfull union here in Belgium ( connections with politics) and since a lot had already accomplished, they keep fighting for ridiculous things for the mere purpose of keeping themselves releva…

I see you're somewhat bitter about this topic. Is that a good way to present your argument though?

It seems to me that this kind of sentiment ("I've experienced hardships or know people who did, so why does this group deserve better?") is quite prevalent here in germany as well.

I think this is a common trope among richer countries at least, and probably one of the most effective strategies or rhetoric patterns to stall social progress.

Sometimes I'm catching myself thinking along similar lines, and when I do, I'll try to step back and try to examine why I'm having these thoughts, and if there's actually an argument against having changes like this. Is there any disadvantage for me, or for anyone really?

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#539

Post by loceng »

aphextron wrote: post #291
loceng wrote: post #287

How is anyone buying into the complete false statement/propaganda that what Elon said is a threat? Has anyone commenting here even read Elon's tweet in question? "Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcare." - Elon,…

>"Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcare." - Elon, https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998454539941367808 This is literally textbook union busting BS. It's been the same line for 200 years.

Private companies are allowed to negotiate with unions, no? That's the point of a union - to have an organizational body that allows members to vote. All Elon is saying is that Tesla won't be providing stock options to a union. The union could still strike if they don't get what they want - but this being considered a threat or union busting is akin to a temper tantrum because you don't like that something you're currently getting (candystock) then you'll no longer get.

Re: Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board

#540

Post by loceng »

cinntaile wrote: post #327
loceng wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punishment? It's negotiation. It's Elon stating that Tesla won't be putting stock options on the table, but a union still could then negotiate - they could potentially negotiate to refuse to work unless they're getting stock but it sounds like Tesla is drawing the line there because they believe that their stock is valuable and will become much more valuable; employees will have to decide for themselves if they want…

So if I tell you that you can join a union but if you do you won't get stock options, then I have negotiated with you?

You can then refuse to work, as a group, and that will apply pressure to Tesla.
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