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Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

theguardian.com

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Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#531

Post by optimuspaul »

Zak wrote: post #482
optimuspaul wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to dig a little deeper. Swiss gun ownership is primarily guns owned by those in mandatory military service. The have guns, but most do not have ammunition with the guns. The majority of Swiss gun owners simply cannot shoot someone with their guns without first obtaining difficult to obtain ammunition. Looking at the numbers alone is not enough. Just like looking at the US numbers alone doesn't really tell th…

Ammunition is not difficult to obtain in Switzerland. Essentially anyone who can legally possess a gun can buy it from a gun store. Government-issued ammunition is difficult to take home, but there's plenty of commercial ammunition that will work in the government-issued rifles.

Maybe difficult was too strong of a word. There are plenty of barriers to obtaining both guns and ammunition, far more than in the US.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#532

Post by usrusr »

adrusi wrote: post #458
usrusr wrote: post #446

One reason (surely not the only one) why decriminalization is rarely talked about is that a large fraction of those who do not fall into the "war in drugs" camp are far too preoccupied talking about legalization. The fate of all middle ground positions. (Not to be confused with compromises, that are far too often the combination of the worst of each, because that somehow seems to help both sides to save face)

That's because decriminalization is a worst of both worlds option. It's not illegal to possess drugs so you see a bit of an uptick in usage, but the market is still unregulated so you have all the biggest problems remain: drugs being sold are adulterated (e.g. fentanyl), drug prices are way high because they're black market products (junkies are known to sacrifice everything they have, then steal from their family, t…

Sure, decriminalization of use leaves out all the supply side changes, but it makes it much easier getting or giving help with stopping a drug habit.

But I do not agree with that "same uptick as legalization": when people don't start, they don't start because of fear of getting hooked, not because of fear of getting caught. Legalization comes with a much stronger "if it's not forbidden it can't be that dangerous" subtext than just decriminalization. The only real disadvantage of decriminalization is that you lose the occasional successful withdrawal after a "punishment or treatment, your choice" deal (happens all the time in a de facto but not de jure decriminalization environment), but since that is only the second best way to start withdrawal, maybe it is not much of a loss since it allows to focus resources on those who want to stop on their own initiative. (But in my experience with addicts, they all kind of wanted to stop and kind of did not, all the time, so there is always a base for external "inspiration" to work with)

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#533

Post by CompanionCuuube »

grasshopperpurp wrote: post #524
CompanionCuuube wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that the question? Gun control people always try to propose the hypothetical as a "voluntary buyback" rather than jackboots kicking doors down.

I don't know. Why don't you ask him why he said it? >Yes, they may very well begin with outlawing guns. Which is why we have guns. If you try to take my gun by force, I will shoot you. >This isn't what it takes. This would be the first formal step, but what it would take is for the State to pry them out of my hands, which would be met with resistance. Not just by me, but by the millions of gun-owners across the count…

Poster was asked what it would take for gun control to be effective as a precursor for tyranny. Poster responds with an answer which goes beyond the pale for what most civilized countries would consider. I asked why you were incredulous, and you responded that you were incredulous about an incredulous hypothetical. The part you quoted says it's untenable.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#534

Post by gozur88 »

madaxe_again wrote: post #523
gozur88 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The school shootings are irrelevant statistically. They make the news because they're upsetting, but you're more likely to be beaten to death by someone's fists than shot with a long gun in the US. The vast majority of gun crime is done with handguns, and much of it is already illegal - i.e. felons in possession of guns or people carrying when or where they're not legally allowed to do so.

So where do those illegal guns come from? Santa? No. The legal gun market.

Well, sure. And if there were no legal gun market, they'd come from the illegal market like they do in places like Brazil and France. What's your point?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#535

Post by RealityVoid »

mmjaa wrote: post #418
lpa22 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you are either being sarcastic or are you actually equating a knife with an AR-15?

I'm not equating anything with anything, you are. I'm just saying that banning guns doesn't solve the violence problem - it just makes it less politically sensitive, since guns can be used from a distance and invoke all kinds of militaristic responses - whereas grandma's kitchen knife is a 'nice' kind of weapon, since .. you know .. its harder to kill masses of people with it. But the crime still rolls on, regardless…

How about your odds of defending yourself with a gun against a gun wielding maniac? Because that's the current atmosphere in the us.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#536

Post by andai »

mhalle wrote: post #316
andai wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently learned that James Holmes, who committed the Aurora cinema mass shooting, drove an additional distance to get to the only theater in the area where customers weren't allowed to have firearms, the only place where law-abiding citizens weren't allowed to defend themselves.

James Holmes was mentally ill, stopped his therapy, and wrote journals filled with details about how he was going to kill people. His perception of reality, his interpretation of threats, and what drove his motivations were are an exceptionally poor basis for establishing public gun policy.

Maybe so, but insane or not, how far would he have gotten with his plans if even a fraction of those around him could shoot back?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#537

Post by grasshopperpurp »

CompanionCuuube wrote: post #533
grasshopperpurp wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. Why don't you ask him why he said it? >Yes, they may very well begin with outlawing guns. Which is why we have guns. If you try to take my gun by force, I will shoot you. >This isn't what it takes. This would be the first formal step, but what it would take is for the State to pry them out of my hands, which would be met with resistance. Not just by me, but by the millions of gun-owners across the count…

Poster was asked what it would take for gun control to be effective as a precursor for tyranny. Poster responds with an answer which goes beyond the pale for what most civilized countries would consider. I asked why you were incredulous, and you responded that you were incredulous about an incredulous hypothetical. The part you quoted says it's untenable.

Oh, I misunderstood you. I was incredulous because most people would not admit that. I wonder if the poster has considered who would be coming to take away his guns. Most 2A advocates are thin-blue-line apologists.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#538

Post by mikeash »

grasshopperpurp wrote: post #537
CompanionCuuube wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poster was asked what it would take for gun control to be effective as a precursor for tyranny. Poster responds with an answer which goes beyond the pale for what most civilized countries would consider. I asked why you were incredulous, and you responded that you were incredulous about an incredulous hypothetical. The part you quoted says it's untenable.

Oh, I misunderstood you. I was incredulous because most people would not admit that. I wonder if the poster has considered who would be coming to take away his guns. Most 2A advocates are thin-blue-line apologists.

That's a fairly recent development. Only about 20 years ago, the NRA was going on about "jack-booted thugs" and the gun enthusiasts in general were pretty skeptical of law enforcement.

It's been interesting, and more than a little disturbing, to watch it change. I'm not a big fan either way, but I much preferred them when their gun advocacy was part of a larger libertarian framework rather than a fascist one.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#539

Post by major505 »

petecox wrote: post #376
major505 wrote: post #285

Each country needs to have its own thing. In Brazil for example, a measure like this wold not have any impact because we do not have control over our borders. Take smoking for example. Even if tabacco its alowed, its really expensive to buy legalized cigarrets. So peoplo just smoke cheap ones, that enter from Paraguai border, with no quality control, and brougth in Brazil by organized crime, or even produced in cland…

> we do not have control over our borders. Arguably, Portugal doesn't have much control either. They can control their ports but there are no checks of anyone entering from Spain by car and airport security isn't as tight in passport-free Europe as would be intercontinental flights.

Portugal is a contry with only 92.212 km². MT state have 9 times that.

Brazil has 15735 km of land frontier with the biggest cocaine and marijuana producers in the world.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#540

Post by scotty79 »

Helmet wrote: post #503
scotty79 wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I simply don't trust the government and I believe in the right to arm and protect myself at any and all costs. But you are aware that your government has tanks, drones and vast selection of chemical weapons. Soon they'll have lethal drones small enough to make a person with gun just as harmless as a person without a gun. People that want guns, I feel, think they are living with their minds in the future where they…

All that technology, and yet a bunch of Vietnamese living in small villages and mud huts put up enough of a fight to create a permanent sore spot in US military history. Also, those guys we've been trying to kill for the past 15 years in the middle east keep coming back fiercer than ever. And who do you think operates all that fancy technology? Men who own guns and whose fathers owned guns before them. No, not all of…

> All that technology, and yet a bunch of Vietnamese living in small villages and mud huts put up enough of a fight to create a permanent sore spot in US military history.

The table titled Belligerents on the page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War doesn't say "US gov" vs "mudhut villagers".

Do you expect Soviets to help you with your struggle with your oppressive US government?

Besides it was 40 years ago which is pretty much ancient time for military and anti-riot technology.

> Also, those guys we've been trying to kill for the past 15 years in the middle east keep coming back fiercer than ever.

So losses of 15000 isis soldiers for each US military soldier dead is for you "guys ... in the middle east coming back fiercer than ever"? You'd like to be of the loosing side of such conflict for whatever reason?

> And who do you think operates all that fancy technology? Men who own guns and whose fathers owned guns before them.

Not necessarily own, just operate. I don't think that soldiers have significantly higher gun ownership percentage than civilians. Also all of them have a strong opinion about obeying your superiors, kinda goes along with the job. I don't think they'll be sympathetic to bunch of civilians that don't obey their superiors.

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