Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#521

Post by javagram » Tue, May 05, 2020, 1:32 PM UTC

propogandist wrote: post #517

rexarex wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly why they aren’t collecting GPS data and the system is built using anonymous Bluetooth keys, similar to the find my iPhone anonymous network. Can’t hand over what you don’t have.

How does this jive with Google, for instance, using Bluetooth scanning (enabled by default) for high location accuracy? This has been enabled for years and most people are simply aware of it being enabled (outside of HN). Google has effectively been using Bluetooth scanning and contact tracing (of sorts) as part of their location tracking feature... Now they're turning around and saying they won't track location from…

Apple and google are working together on this. So it’s an agreement between them both to have a more privacy-centered protocol for this purpose.

Google lets you do a lot more privacy violation on Android, but Apple has been building their brand around privacy and wouldn’t participate in that.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#522

Post by javagram » Tue, May 05, 2020, 1:34 PM UTC

benhurmarcel wrote: post #434

extra88 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On my iPhone running iOS 13, I had to go a level deeper to find that: Settings -> Privacy -> Location Services -> System Services -> Significant Locations. To view Significant Locations, I have to provide my Touch ID again. Also, the fine print says "Significant Locations are end-to-end encrypted and cannot be read by Apple." Text repeated in "Location Services & Privacy"[0]. [0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207…

Is there any negative consequences to turning that off? What are those locations used for?

If you click on the link in the post you respond to, it explains what the locations are used for.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#523

Post by q92z8oeif » Tue, May 05, 2020, 1:38 PM UTC

blauditore wrote: post #427

m12k wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

I kind of disagree with this. If a company publicly claims to follow certain principles and vows to have mechanisms in place to protect user privacy, people on the inside are able to judge if those principles are being followed. The larger a company is, the lower are chances that everyone would stay silent in case of a (systematic) breach of those principles. So in a sense, it's much harder for larger companies to se…

> The larger a company is, the lower are chances that everyone would stay silent in case of a (systematic) breach of those principles

that's wildly wrong hypothesis. the complete opposite of these ideas are uncontested knowledge in academia, and in popular culture as well.

see Hannah Arendt's work. (which doesn't even include profit and personal gains!)

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#524

Post by dTal » Tue, May 05, 2020, 1:43 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #482

kd5bjo wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defining what represents a change-of-control is probably the trickiest part of moving this from an interesting idea to a real proposal. Probably, the key factor should be whether or not the senior management and/or the board membership stays essentially the same; new management should be required to earn their own trust from customers that might not follow company news.

Realistically that means no brand lasting longer than about ten years, and the total elimination of lots of century-old brands that people have fond relationships with. It's a stupidly excessive hammer that fails to address the real problems. And it's probably going to suffer the obvious free speech challenges.

"Free speech" is a ridiculous charge to level at this. The concept of a government-protected trademark is itself a restriction on free speech in the first place, as are all consumer-protection labeling laws.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#525

Post by eternalban » Tue, May 05, 2020, 1:47 PM UTC

rched wrote: post #332

eternalban wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I can’t wrap my head around this kind of hate towards the Apple/Google contact tracing. If Apple or Google wanted to track your location they would just do it using the GPS on your phone. Short of getting rid of your phone there would be nothing you could do to stop it. If they wanted to allow specific apps to track your location they would just give those apps access to your location in the background. It seems like…

It completely outrageous for you to characterize my critical views as "hate" for anything.

It doesn't "seem". It is clearly my preference to have any sort of surveillance be done by a government that answers to ME, the citizen. EULA vs Constitution.

And no, I do not trust them with anything.

And also an interesting little fact about "governments". They change. People have been known to have substantial say in their behavior. And there is that little ("hateful") matter of Law of the land.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#526

Post by dTal » Tue, May 05, 2020, 1:49 PM UTC

asdf_iiifi wrote: post #454

m12k wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

Correct. I'm an avid Apple product user (a dozen Apple products in the house actively used at the moment), but it's obvious that "privacy" was a PR push against rivals that had little or no impact on their bottom line. If Apple relied on private info for revenue, the warm smile would be the same but the wording would be very different. Still, the problem is more along the axis of technology. Even if Apple open-source…

>a lack of whistleblowers isn't evidence that they are.

It is, actually. It reduces the number of possible worlds in which Apple is an evil company, while leaving intact the number of possible worlds in which it is saintly.

It's only weak evidence, to be sure.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#527

Post by vertex-four » Tue, May 05, 2020, 1:50 PM UTC

taywrobel wrote: post #193

vertex-four wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we would think the same about Lockheed, Raytheon or IBM. Just because there'll always be someone without morals doesn't mean we just shrug and say anything goes.

I’m not saying we should shrug and say anything goes. I’m saying all these companies share one commonality - the are building things for the US government. If you want to see change that is more than just superficial, that’s where you need to make it.

Sure. That doesn't mean that what Palantir are doing isn't wrong - selling tools to an entity which is going to use them for harm is wrong, even if they might result in slightly less harm than selling them some other tool.

If someone comes into a gun shop and tells you they want to shoot up a classroom, selling them a pistol instead of a machine gun doesn't make you immune from judgement.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#528

Post by burnishing » Tue, May 05, 2020, 1:51 PM UTC

kd5bjo wrote: post #409

m12k wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the notion of trusting any company over a certain size is crazy - I wish people would stop anthropomorphizing companies that way. Basically, I can trust specific people if I feel that I know their character, and by proxy I might trust a company that these people have significant control over. Once a company reaches a certain size, any power that individual employees wield will have been diluted to microscopic…

I’ve thought for a while that trademarks should be non-transferrable, and should be voided on change-of-control of a company. Their primary purpose is to let the consumer know the origin of goods, and to allow companies to build a reputation around intangible properties of their products, like longevity, quality, and craftsmanship. Selling a trademark is fundamentally betraying that trust in exchange for a monetary r…

The purpose of trademarks is to capture value for their holders, not consumers. That it is why it is the holders who are awarded damages.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#529

Post by zajio1am » Tue, May 05, 2020, 1:51 PM UTC

rorykoehler wrote: post #420

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

Companies shouldn't be allow to become as rich and powerful as Apple. We're supposed to live in a democratic system. Corporate power on the scale of FAANG is the antithesis of democracy.

The problem with Apple is not that it is big, but that it uses its power in one market segment (phones) to control other market segments (phone apps). And not just to gain dominance, but to have total market control through App Store.

If anti-monopoly offices were able to force Microsoft to offer competing browsers after OS installation, then they should force Apple and Google to offer competing App Stores, each with its own app policies.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#530

Post by dTal » Tue, May 05, 2020, 1:54 PM UTC

fenomas wrote: post #308

azinman2 wrote: post #239

I have to say, working at Apple and knowing all the hard work that goes into this and making sure your data stays private while also being able to combat this disease, it's very frustrating to read a lot of the comments here. I can understand why the public is skeptical, but I feel like as a society we've swung so far away from institutional trust that now nothing good can actually emerge. The anti-vax movement is a…

I've long felt like Apple is uniquely easy to distrust, due to its almost total lack of visible employees. I assume there are actual people working there, but I've never seen one, say, speak (openly) at a meetup or answer a stackoverflow question, or the like. ~Everything I know about Apple either comes from an advertisement or from a guy who talked to a guy who talked to Gruber, and I have a feeling that that makes…

I've met an Apple employee at a conference, just once. Talking to him was reminiscent of talking to an employee of GCHQ (which I have also done). Relaxed and affable, but wielded the phrase "I can't tell you that" with the familiarity of one who says it several times a day.