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Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

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Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#511

Post by native_samples »

bigger_inside wrote: post #370
native_samples wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happens because there's a lot of cultural bias towards being centrist, being perceived as the reasonable middle. People like that a lot, it feels good, so whenever such people try to describe political disputes it's tempting to try and describe both parties as the same when arguably they're not. This Substack article is a good case in point. It makes it sound like there's two sides, both demanding censorship, an…

This seems to be the public perception: only one side demands censorship. This isn't quite true and only shows you how well one side is at publicizing that they're being censored, which, ironically, means they're censored -less-. Palestinian accounts on facebook have been deleted for years when they were trying to report on occupation. Facebook also deleted all the accounts of Nicaraguan socialists trying to counter…

Well, I was using vaccines as an example because it's mentioned in the article (which appears to be prompted by some flak from the Guardian).

I don't know about Palestinians and Nicaraguan socialists. Are they demanding that their critics be silenced? I doubt they're in any position to even imagine demanding that.

"It's an old (very, very old) insight that rules for censorship are made with the excesses of the right as legitimation for it, and then used against the left."

Maybe it's old because it's no longer true? I'm approaching middle age now, and the best examples of right wing censorship I can think of are all related to sexual morals and porn. But at least in the UK left wing parties usually support censoring that stuff too, e.g. here's an old article about the current head of the UK Labour Party being concerned about internet porn and other Labour party figures supporting the idea of internet censorship:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2169509/Internet-po...

If the left has ever been the side of free speech it must have been some time before I was born. I suspect the reality is that the people who want censorship are typically those in power or most aligned with power, and that swings back and forth over time.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#512

Post by Swenrekcah »

hnuser847 wrote: post #464
Swenrekcah wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European perspective here: Trump was definitely trying to make himself a dictator, just look at how he handled losing an election. Please don’t vote him in again America. Agree on moral panic issues though.

He was handed a global pandemic in which it was completely permissible for leaders to take on unprecedented, unlimited emergency powers, and yet he did nothing. He was actually criticized for not using his emergency powers to implement an (unconstitutional) national lockdown. If his true goal was to become a dictator, why did he do nothing when he was given the perfect opportunity?

He made no difference between himself and the state. Used the AG as his personal lawyer. Used his position to secure personal business dealings. And then tried to orchestrate a coup when he lost.

He’s not literally the devil but he’s both so incompetent and corrupt that I’m frankly baffled there is such fervent support for him.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#513

Post by epgui »

slibhb wrote: post #466
epgui wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. When it comes to your health, you are what you eat. Why do people think their brains are completely unaffected by their training set? You think what you read/hear. We're just meat computers, and information hygiene (or the lack thereof) actually matters and has a big impact.

Lovely, and who gets to determine which information is "hygienic"? I don't think it's a coincidence that people who support censorship think of humans as "meat computers". I suggest that if someone says "we are meat computers," we start treating them like one, i.e. ignoring them.

I’m not saying this is easy.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#514

Post by mindslight »

systemvoltage wrote: post #184
mindslight wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I still think CDC does good work. Just that the leadership needs to come out clean and apologize the public for being partisan. Why are you saying "partisan" rather than "incompetent" ? It's surely convenient to blame the institutional incompetence on a strawman "other side", but the fact of the matter is that under administrations from both Parties they've repeatedly dropped the ball. Distributing free rapid tests…

It was partisanry. Francis Collins (NIH Director) and Fauci from NSAID were afraid of appearing to support Trump's rhetoric of China-virus. So they doubled down on supression of information and completely shutdown any discussion in the entire scientific community regarding Lab Leak origins.

I'd say it's a stretch to characterize reacting against ignorant demagoguery as "partisanry", but okay.

I'd still say the majority of trust was squandered by public facing guidance and actions, rather than what happened behind the scenes.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#515

Post by lesuorac »

kabouseng wrote: post #509
vannevar wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that terrorism in the US is a miniscule threat in reality, killing a handful of people a year, whereas the virus is one of the top causes of death over the past two years. Not all fears are unjustified. Climate change already kills far more people annually than terrorism via floods, fires, and droughts. That being said, fear doesn't justify authoritarianism, even when the fear is reasonable.

Actually fewer die due to climate change due to fewer people freezing to death...

> Overall, a total of more than 19,000 Americans have died from cold-related causes since 1979, according to death certificates.

It's a bit hard to prove who died due to the flood/etc being affect by climate change as opposed to if they'd have died if the flood was less. But I'm not sure ~500/yr is a good number to bet against.

https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/climate-change-indica....

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#516

Post by aklemm »

givemeethekeys wrote: post #248
dools wrote: post #240

The funny thing is that everyone commenting here thinks that we're headed towards an authoritarian nightmare, but for different reasons. It's not until you sit with someone and nut out what they mean by "authoritarian" and "censorship" and so on that you realise you're completely morally and politically opposed to them. This shallow political take is what allows so many strange bedfellows to unite on the "political r…

Fear leads to a loss of freedom. When we're afraid, we give power to politicians that promise deal with it swiftly. Pre-pandemic, the right had a monopoly on fear-based politicking. Then the pandemic hit and the left finally got their turn to exercise it. Has the war on terror stopped? No? When do we get to hop onto a plane without undressing ourselves? Oh, but now there's a war against viruses? So you have to undres…

A rant like this makes me ask; can we do much better? Want if this is about as good as human cooperation gets?

A rant like this has only one answer, and it’s for society to stop trying. The ranter fails to grapple with details, matters of fact, and reality in general. The ranter is overwhelmed.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#517

Post by colordrops »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #394
colordrops wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using "immunocompromised people" as the excuse for every abuse of rights and ethics is the same as the right wing using "think of the children" or "the terrorists will get us".

A mask is not a human rights abuse. You know the difference between "the terrorists will get us" and "wear a mask to help protect others"? Only the second one is based in fact. Just because you refuse to believe such doesn't change this.

Are you intentionally misunderstanding? We are talking about censorship, not the policy around masks.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#518

Post by nradov »

hutzlibu wrote: post #504
mensetmanusman wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scientific method applied to preferences is probably not the scientific method (in regards to control experiments (unless you have clones and access to the multi verse:)))

The very basic idea of the scientific method as I learned it, is: testing ideas by experiment. If it looks cold outside, but not too cold - I have the idea that a medium warm jacket of mine is enough. And then outside I see if it was adequate or not and next time under similar conditions I change accordingly, or go back to the house that instant. Sounds like common sense and it is. But not everyone is doing it. I ser…

Actually, wanting to be comfortable all the time is irrational. You should intentionally make yourself uncomfortable occasionally in order to avoid becoming too "precious". Hypothermia is an old friend of mine.

https://davidgoggins.com/book/

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#519

Post by epgui »

loughnane wrote: post #458
epgui wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you have free speech. Yay! Now what? Why was this so important again? Free speech is not an end goal. It's a tool that serves a purpose. In the relationship between a powerful government and a collection of individually vulnerable citizens, it pushes the power balance farther toward the individual. Is the goal to give all the power to the individual? No, that's not the goal. The goal is to have some sort of e…

I rank free speech very highly, certainly more than just a tool. My reasoning is this: 1. Some things are good in themselves, some for the sake of other things, some both. 2. Thus there must be an ultimate good that is good only in itself 3. “Happiness” seems to be to be that ultimate good. 4. “What is happiness” takes more than a sentence, but my money is that it’s closely related to things that are unique to humans…

Why do you think something serving as a tool, or having a utility, makes something less important?

You could see lungs as a tool to breathe, it doesn’t mean they aren’t essential.

Re: Society has a trust problem. More censorship will only make it worse

#520

Post by throwaway22032 »

lalaland1125 wrote: post #242
throwaway22032 wrote: post #204

I don't think that this is really a "trust problem". It's more of a misattribution problem. People think they know what the "other side" is thinking, but they really don't. Barely anyone "doubts the efficacy of coronavirus vaccines". This is a tiny, tiny, trivial minority. The main arguments I come across are some combination of: "coronavirus is a non issue for me, and so the efficacy of a vaccine is irrelevant" "cor…

Literally Fox News yesterday: https://twitter.com/NikkiMcR/status/1486154086877650945?t=Z4... > The mRNA COVID vaccines need to be withdrawn from the market. No one should get them. No one should get boosted. No one should get double boosted. They are a dangerous and ineffective product at this point. How is that not "doubting the efficacy of coronavirus vaccines"?

It is.
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