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Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

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Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#511

Post by flingo »

btown wrote: post #498
cepp wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the short term, Epic loses money by not having Fortnite on Apple devices. Will they though? For all the players who already had the app they still have access to Epic's payment system meaning they're making 20% more on those transactions. I'm not sure that new user purchases will be > 20% they make in the short term from those existing users.

An important part of this is that as far as I can tell, most AAA mobile games now ship all but the most fundamental "code updates" as updates to interpreted scripts/data files over the Internet, bypassing the App Store update mechanism. (Where does data end and code begin? That's a philosophical argument that historically Apple could look the other way on for high-performing mobile games with weekly or even more freq…

Apple's iOS ToS specifically forbids downloading and executing code by the app. (with a definition of "code", and "execute" somewhere in the document)

While you could technically hide this from them during the review stage, apple can stop any app from functioning on any iOS device connected to the internet by revoking the certificate, if they discover it at a later stage.

Are there noteworthy apps that break this term in the wild?

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#512

Post by takeda »

burlesona wrote: post #476
pier25 wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think Epic ever intended to release the new Fortnite season on Apple platforms. Epic probably doesn't care much about Apple platforms. 80% of Fortnite players are on console. I doubt macOS accounts for more than 1-2%. https://newzoo.com/insights/articles/newzoos-battle-royale-s...

And ironically Epic is mum on all those consoles that take the exact same cut that Apple does. The iPhone is merely another console. Really hard for me to see why this is controversial, or why Epic thinks that Apple can have a monopoly over their console while somehow Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo don’t...

Maybe they chose the smallest market to fight this and set a new precedent?

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#513

Post by cwhiz »

nvrspyx wrote: post #371
nodamage wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure why this fallacy continues to be repeated in every Apple thread. Apple currently has 46% US market share [1] and 14% global market share [2]. This is far from monopoly power. By contrast, Microsoft had 95% market share during their antitrust suit. [3] [1] https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-market-smartphone-sh... [2] https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share... [3] https://schola…

First, these statistics are for phones shipped, not current active users of said phones. It's well known that iPhone users tend to hold on to their phone for longer before upgrading compared to Android users, who often switch phones much earlier. You need to look at operating-system market share based on active users(e.g. web tracking), not "who upgraded their phone this quarter". In that regard, Apple has over 56% m…

With this line of reasoning Epic has a monopoly on the Fortnite store. It’s a really absurd interpretation of competition law.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#515

Post by thinkloop »

metiscus wrote: post #490
bdcravens wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have the app as long as they don't have to reinstall it (new or replacement phone)

Perhaps that works for epic as well, giving apple customers an incentive to move to a platform that allows side loading?

Nobody sideloads, especially not kids

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#516

Post by CydeWeys »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #507
hu3 wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might now buy Android devices instead. It goes both ways.

I thought it was also off Android right now.

No, it's only off the Play Store. But you can still download and install it from elsewhere. iOS is unique in that you can only install apps through the store; there is no side-loading.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#517

Post by CydeWeys »

thinkloop wrote: post #515
metiscus wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps that works for epic as well, giving apple customers an incentive to move to a platform that allows side loading?

Nobody sideloads, especially not kids

Kids are technologically clever, and so long as one of them figures it out it's gonna virally spread to the rest of them. That's certainly how it was for me in school.

So, I suspect that lots of people are going to be sideloading in the very near future.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#518

Post by hinkley »

flyinghamster wrote: post #493

Regardless of where you stand on this brouhaha, it's still a cautionary tale about what can go wrong when you develop for a walled garden platform where your access to developer tools can be revoked on a whim.

Whim? What whim?

Epic poked a bear with a stick. A stick they deliberately sharpened for poking.

No idea why they thought they would walk away from that unharmed. Enormous hubris or a complete lack of understanding of politics? Probably both.

Nothing Epic did is the sort of thing a potential employer of mine would accidentally do. There are cautionary tales to be sure. This isn’t one of them.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#519

Post by philplckthun »

pvg wrote: post #505
_qulr wrote: post #387

My feeling is that this whole situation is mostly going as Tim Sweeney intended. He was itching for a fight, wanted to sue Apple. The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. Did Sweeney anticipate Apple's threat to Unreal Engine? Maybe, maybe not. But the temporary restraining order did block that threat, at least for now. I don't think Epic ever intended to…

The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. I keep seeing seeing assessments in this vein but they can't really be right - the courts would have to be toddler-level naive not to see through it. They aren't - here's Judge Rogers addressing Epic at the recent hearing (as reported by Sarah Jeong): "To Epic: Your client created this situation. Your client does n…

Just some thoughts; I actually found this phrasing really interesting, because clearly “you cannot have irreparable harm when you create the harm yourself” is provably incorrect.

The judge won’t let this influence the decision on not extending the injunction to the Epic Games contract with Apple because of an earlier point, which is that two separate contracts exist. It’s interesting that this has been addressed with this flimsy follow-up argument.

Obviously the court shouldn’t let this influence their decision because it was a calculated move, and it’s assumed that Epic is fine with the harm it causes them to make a point. Nonetheless it’s causing them financial harm, which may in the long term be irreparable if in the meantime their player base on iOS shifts to different games.

So all in all, it is a calculated risk but irreparable harm is indeed one possible outcome. Whether Apple takes any responsibility in this depends on how the court decides in the case however. Even if their behaviour is judged as uncompetitive, that may not automatically mean that they’re at all at fault here.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#520

Post by _qulr »

pvg wrote: post #505
_qulr wrote: post #387

My feeling is that this whole situation is mostly going as Tim Sweeney intended. He was itching for a fight, wanted to sue Apple. The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. Did Sweeney anticipate Apple's threat to Unreal Engine? Maybe, maybe not. But the temporary restraining order did block that threat, at least for now. I don't think Epic ever intended to…

The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. I keep seeing seeing assessments in this vein but they can't really be right - the courts would have to be toddler-level naive not to see through it. They aren't - here's Judge Rogers addressing Epic at the recent hearing (as reported by Sarah Jeong): "To Epic: Your client created this situation. Your client does n…

Epic's motion had several parts. The judge denied Epic's motion to be restored to the App Store. But the judge did grant a restraining order to prevent Apple from closing all of Epic's developer accounts. That was the retaliation, and the judge said it fit the criterion of irreparable harm.

If Apple had simply removed Fortnite and stopped there, they'd be in a better position legally, and in terms of PR.

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