Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult • Hacker News Board

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#501

Post by vbuterin » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 7:55 AM UTC

sentenza wrote: post #141

konstruktor wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I think that with basic income, this question would not make sense, and that's exactly the reason that I like the idea so much. The reason why people do boring, dirty and dangerous work for little money is that there are folks who have no skills that would enable them to get a more fulfill…

Unfortunately, there is actual experimental evidence to the contrary. Some of the Arabian Emirates have cash payments to their ethnically Arabian citizens that are practically equivalent to a high basic income. In those cases, all the "dirty" labor is done by legal/illegal immigrants that are not eligible for said basic income and thus willing to work for much less. IMO this is the central problem with the idea of a…

> In those cases, all the "dirty" labor is done by legal/illegal immigrants that are not eligible for said basic income and thus willing to work for much less.

So the introduction of a basic income would make demand for illegal immigrant labor increase. By standard economics, this means that the price of illegal immigrant labor would increase, so even the illegal immigrants would benefit. Sounds like a win/win to me.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#502

Post by m_mueller » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 8:27 AM UTC

gadders wrote: post #466

m_mueller wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our ancestors have put up a direct democratic system for a reason: In the believe that it will serve as a sufficient check on political groups not to perform experiments on our society that the majority of people don't agree with. Sorry, but there's just no way this is going to happen. On a related note: In the light of recent history I more and more come to believe that exactly these checks are what's missing in the…

Yeah, but he is the President...

Apparently it's also no problem if it's the speaker of the house, if I understand recent news from this kafkaeske play.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#503

Post by freyr » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 8:35 AM UTC

Egregore wrote: post #498

philwelch wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military budget is probably not too high for the existing requirements of the US. The US is obligated, by treaty and policy, to provide mutual defense to most of the world. The US military has additional moral obligations to minimize civilian casualties, as well as political obligations to minimize both time expenditure and friendly casualties. These requirements are historically unprecedented and contributes…

Not Steve Jobs nor Bill Gates have been to military service, this I think allowed them to develop their companies, what will happen in case of mandatory service?

I don't promote compulsory military service, but what would prevent someone from being an entrepreneur after finishing their military service?

Consider that many developed nations have compulsory military service (Finland, Norway, South Korea, Singapore, Israel, Switzerland, etc.), and yet people still manage to start new companies there.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#504

Post by yason » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 8:45 AM UTC

I wonder if that just raises the bar and everything becomes the same again:

- everyone gets at least X for basic income

- for some people it makes more sense to not take low-paid shitty jobs because deducting commuting and lunch expenses from the low-paid salary you can probably make the same money on basic income, especially if you're willing to be a bit frugal

- more money gets offered for low-paid shitty jobs because there's high demand and low supply of workers

- the extra money is charged from the customers of the companies who employ the workers who do the not-so-low-paid shitty jobs

- the costs trickle upwards and cause inflated prices which in turn makes landlords raise rents accordingly

- the rents and price of food become painfully high for those who live on basic income

- we're back at square one: poor people have to take shitty, relatively low-paid jobs to make a living because the amount of basic income, X, is baked into pretty much all prices in the market

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#505

Post by philwelch » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 9:13 AM UTC

4hthth4 wrote: post #500

philwelch wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military budget is probably not too high for the existing requirements of the US. The US is obligated, by treaty and policy, to provide mutual defense to most of the world. The US military has additional moral obligations to minimize civilian casualties, as well as political obligations to minimize both time expenditure and friendly casualties. These requirements are historically unprecedented and contributes…

> The US is obligated, by treaty and policy, to provide mutual defense to most of the world. That in now way sounds like it requires the US to spend an extra 800 billion per year on its military.

It's like you didn't even read the rest of my comment. Enough with you--I don't have time for people who argue in bad faith.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#506

Post by philwelch » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 9:14 AM UTC

Egregore wrote: post #498

philwelch wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military budget is probably not too high for the existing requirements of the US. The US is obligated, by treaty and policy, to provide mutual defense to most of the world. The US military has additional moral obligations to minimize civilian casualties, as well as political obligations to minimize both time expenditure and friendly casualties. These requirements are historically unprecedented and contributes…

Not Steve Jobs nor Bill Gates have been to military service, this I think allowed them to develop their companies, what will happen in case of mandatory service?

Neither of them had guaranteed basic income, either.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#507

Post by whytaka » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 9:19 AM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #386

TelmoMenezes wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. I believe this would not be a problem in the long run for the following reasons: - A lot of boring low-pay work is unnecessary (dealing with the endless paper trail of over-complicated bureaucracies, lots of things that companies do, like telemarketing, just because it's so cheap, etc. etc…

Converting $33,600 basic income (assuming this goes to every adult, 210 million people) to the entire population (318 million) is about $22,200 per capita. Per capita income in the United States in 2012 was $42,693 [1]. Assuming that would remain unchanged, taxes to fund a basic income of $22,200 that would leave $20,500 per capita. Per-capita state tax collections are already 2,435.11 [2] and federal tax collections…

I think you forgot one major piece of the equation: You get that $22,000 back.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#508

Post by nine_k » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 9:26 AM UTC

derefr wrote: post #149

sentenza wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, there is actual experimental evidence to the contrary. Some of the Arabian Emirates have cash payments to their ethnically Arabian citizens that are practically equivalent to a high basic income. In those cases, all the "dirty" labor is done by legal/illegal immigrants that are not eligible for said basic income and thus willing to work for much less. IMO this is the central problem with the idea of a…

What happens if you take the implicitly-assumed-to-be-ridiculous third option, and give every visitor a green card and a basic income voucher when they cross the border? Then you don't have any illegal immigrants, just lots and lots and lots of citizens. (Don't just reply with the obviously-bad first-order effect on the country receiving the immigrants; remember that bad things would also be happening to the labor po…

It's wise that you wrote "a basic income _voucher_" and not just "basic income". There could be not enough tax money for that.

A great influx of immigrants lured by the "basic income for everyone" concept will most probably greatly lower economic efficiency. This is not because the immigrants would be lazy; this is because they would mostly lack appropriate education, work qualifications, knowledge of the language, and the general culture fit. They'd have hard time becoming as productive as an average American even if they all wanted to.

Of course, the government would be able to print enough money to keep the nominal basic income sum the same — but not the standard of living.

Switzerland, a country with great and deep-ingrained work ethics, could consider such an experiment for _its citizens_. Doing this for any strangers that care to show up is another thing entirely.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#509

Post by phaemon » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 10:09 AM UTC

paulhauggis wrote: post #475

conanbatt wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the arguments against Basic Income and related topics i find most biased against lower income workers. If your goal is to make everyone work, you have to fight wealth accumulation. You sold a company for 5B$ ? doesnt matter, you should be taxed until you have almost no money, so you have to keep working. Your parents made rich money? tough luck. No inheritance. Get to work. But I have yet to hear someo…

"If your goal is to make everyone work, you have to fight wealth accumulation." Wealth accumulation is the reason businesses thrive in the first place. Without businesses, who is going to provide jobs for those lower-income workers? The government? "You sold a company for 5B$ ? doesnt matter, you should be taxed until you have almost no money" If I knew this would happen, I would most likely move my company overseas.…

And you sound foolish. He wasn't proposing any of these things. Read his post again, this time properly.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#510

Post by Ras_ » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 10:22 AM UTC

rmc wrote: post #219

jre wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to put things in perspective (I'm swiss), 2500CHF is a really low salary in Switzerland. There is another initiative asking for a minimum wage of 4000CHF per month. The median swiss salary is close to 6000CHF[1]. The administration says the poverty line is around 2200CHF per month for someone living alone [2]. You can't really just convert to $ and say it's a lot of money. A lot of basic stuff like food, transpo…

Here here. I've travelled through Switzerland, and can confirm that it's really expensive compared to many other countries. I made the mistake once of planning to stay overnight in Switzerland. That was expensive. About €40 to stay in a rural hostel.

Yes, to many other countries. But how about Switzerland's neighbors? 40e for a rural hostel doesn't sound expensive.