Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult • Hacker News Board

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#461

Post by stefanix » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 11:34 PM UTC

LekkoscPiwa wrote: post #425

Dewie wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't just use the proposed Swiss basic income for your calculations for another country. Switzerland has a higher cost of living than most countries.

yep. A pair of Levi's that are basically 250usd (200 chf) in Zurich are 25usd at Wall Mart in DC. I live in DC and used to work for Credit Suisse in Zurich. I take US any day. My wife's soccer mom car - Land Rover LR4 - is rich bankers car in Switzerland. It's a luxury to own any car in Switzerland. Of course they think that's progress for me that's regress.

You are mixing up what people can afford to what people think they need. It's a style your are criticizing. If anything Zurich has the highest frugality to wealth ratio on the planet, quite possibly.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#462

Post by claudius » Sat, Oct 05, 2013, 11:58 PM UTC

Kliment wrote: post #229

stretchwithme wrote: post #38

Any petition getting enough signatures can place something on the ballot in Switzerland. They've even voted on whether to abolish the military.

I don't see how that's unreasonable.

They couldn’t accidentally invade Liechtenstein any more…

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#463

Post by fleitz » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 12:00 AM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #448

bradleyjg wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could also trim down the single biggest welfare program we have:the military-industrial complex. That's close to $5000 per adult by itself. Edit: Back of envelope -- $3800 per adult from cutting MIC spending from $1 trillion to $200B which is still more than any other nation. $4000 per adult from eliminating Social security including disability. $4800 per adult in total health care savings from switching from our…

How exactly does basic income solve the same problem as the military?

What problems does a $1 trillion military solve that a $200 billion military doesn't. I'd hazard a guess that a $200 billion military generates significant funding cuts above and beyond because it's a bit difficult to get into unilateral quagmires at that funding level.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#464

Post by ballard » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 12:04 AM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #257

twoodfin wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really dogma on the right? At least in the right circles I run in, the EITC (extra cash for working: earn more, get more) is way more popular than food stamps. I am absolutely in favor of cash as the best anti-poverty method. It's also the most respectful of people who are, after all, citizens. If you wouldn't like to be told by the government what foods you are permitted to buy for your family, why should you…

> If you wouldn't like to be told by the government what foods you are permitted to buy for your family, why should you feel good about imposing those restrictions on anyone else? // The difference is that when one is receiving charity it's expected that the giver is free to apply conditions. If I see you're starving and give you money for food and you instead spend it on a weapon so you can rob people then I'm going…

People need comprehensive basics: food, health/personal care, shelter and transportation. I'm not sure one program in one area can address or even a patchwork of programs will cover all of them, without some sort of single-point-of-contact facilitator (not sure if this exists or how that works, throw me a frickn bone ppl.). Also, at the bottom, there tends to be more emergencies and narrower margins of safety (eg unplanned costs), so some cash is an absolute necessity.

Perhaps a path from basic subsides that encourages people to think about how to manage their own cashflow: a) credits for specific basics as a starting point and fallback and b) after education and coaching, incremental more fraction of cash (as atm/check card) given as budgeting and receipt tracking skills are demonstrated. If they slip (off budget or failure to track), it's back to plan a) and possibly trying to get back on plan b) again. This way, people can choose to become more accountable for managing their own existence rather than assuming big mother "always knowing best." It also has the side-effect of instilling some self-confidence, regardless if the person is otherwise capable or not of gainful employment. It might give just enough confidence to pull someone up out of their condition to a less stressful existence or perhaps occasionally into self-sufficiency.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#465

Post by zem » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 12:06 AM UTC

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income.

people who talk about this always do so with the assumption that someone else would do the boring, low-paid work. but if you think about it, why should boring work be low-paid? it's unpleasant and time-consuming, so it should ideally be paid commensurately.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#466

Post by gadders » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 12:07 AM UTC

m_mueller wrote: post #419

Filligree wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Norwegian, I.. agree, but still hope you'll do it. For the greater good of humanity (and Norwegians), Switzerland will make a useful laboratory. It might even work. Sorry, but that's how it is.

Our ancestors have put up a direct democratic system for a reason: In the believe that it will serve as a sufficient check on political groups not to perform experiments on our society that the majority of people don't agree with. Sorry, but there's just no way this is going to happen. On a related note: In the light of recent history I more and more come to believe that exactly these checks are what's missing in the…

Yeah, but he is the President...

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#467

Post by marvin » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 12:16 AM UTC

wcfields wrote: post #410

marvin wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just for the record, I am not currently arguing with you, but I just thought I would point out something from real-world experience which starkly contradicts the "ideal" economic equilibrium you describe. In my experience as a Norwegian, the parity argument isn't even close to true in the real world. There are lots of non-perishable goods here which are imported but are a lot more expensive than they are in the US. F…

A friend of mine touring through Norway decided to get a pizza and a 6 pack of beer. Ended up costing him ~$65.

Sounds about right. My ballpark estimate just now arrived at $67. It's really funny whenever someone complains that the Bay Area is so expensive; in all areas except housing it's a lot cheaper than where I live. Salaries are higher too, if you're in software. If you work on McDonalds, though, you should probably be in Norway.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#468

Post by VMG » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 12:17 AM UTC

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #445

VMG wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So apparently everybody loves this highly nationalist, some might even say racist bill.

That's really baiting. What is racist about this bill? I know the entire concept of an "country" or a "citizen" of some country is deeply disgusting to some people, but those are usually kind of weirdos. You can't seriously hold any one as really being a racist because they recognize such things.

I wouldn't call it racist, but the receivers of these benefits are closely correlated to their origin and race -- Switzerland is not famous for accepting immigrants to their country.

I just want to point out the inherent contradiction of the claims

(a) The system is unlikely to be exploited because humans innately want to work and will be productive in this system.

(b) The benefits are only distributed among a certain group of people, only those who are natives to this country in particular. The only reason for this, I imagine, is the fear of the system being exploited.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that those who like this concept think that only native Swiss people will not exploit the system.

You're right to call me a weirdo though.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#469

Post by Systemic33 » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 12:22 AM UTC

Dewie wrote: post #457

Systemic33 wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed that is correct, my comment wasn't fully inline with the thread topic, but since government aid, basic income, and national immigration politics are very much intertwined, I thought my comment would have value to the discussion.

If you want your comment to add value to the discussion you should edit your comment that says that Denmark has basic income , since apparently it does not.

Apparently it isn't possible to edit my comment, there's only edit link for my previous comment.

It's true that Denmark doesn't have minimal basic income by law, but since most jobs are unionized, the unions have set a basic income. See this translated version of minimum wage on the danish wikipedia [1].

[1] http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&pre...

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#470

Post by rsynnott » Sun, Oct 06, 2013, 12:41 AM UTC

tpainton wrote: post #329

rsynnott wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds like communism to me... Yes, this is exactly what happened in communist countries. That's why everyone hated Stalin so much; he kept giving people money for free. In real life, basic income has mostly been a popular idea with liberal socialists and with libertarians; Bertrand Russell suggested it, but so did Milton Friedman. It very much isn't popular amongst communists, however.

I agree. However, in communist countries (in which my co-workers lived (ex-Soviet)) The job was just a symbol. There would be department stores that sold hardly anything, with 3 people manning a cash register. This is no different than what Swit proposes.. It's just Swit has chosen to forgo the mock job.

The Soviet fake-job thing was really more a failure of central planning; it's not like the Soviets deliberately set out to create fake jobs. The intent is very different, and of course a recipient of basic income would be free (and indeed expected) to have a proper job too.