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Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

reuters.com

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Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#221

Post by kijin »

rglullis wrote: post #200
lmartel wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frickin' everyone would. If someone offered you 30k/year basic income would you quit your cushy programming job, or would you buy more stuff?

I don't know if that was your intention, but your comment smacks of a defense of consumerism. I may be against the idea of basic income exactly because it would allow people to feed a system that does not but expect them to be consumers of whatever crap society produces. Also, see http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/11/hipsters_on_food_stam...

Some would say that basic income helps defeat consumerism, because people who really want to spend their time creating stuff can now do so without having to worry about putting food on the table.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#222

Post by salvadors »

angularly wrote: post #182
marcamillion wrote: post #122

If this passes, I suspect that Switzerland would see a MAJOR, MAJOR spike in inbound immigration requests. I would love to see what that spike would look like.

Not to talk about an enormous spike in unemployment rate, just like in all other countries where you get paid money for not doing anything. I.e. in Denmark where I come from, we have 400.000 people - out of a population of 6mill - who gain nothing or very little from working, to a point where it don't make sense to work at all, compared to just receiving unemployment pay. And logically people opt to just not work.

> And logically people opt to just not work

Your logic isn't backed up by places that have experimented with this.

Yes, there will always be some people who are content to live at the poverty line if they don't have to do any work for it. They are not the people to base your system around.

There are many more people who are happy to do something to improve their quality of life even a little. A problem in many countries with an advanced welfare state is that doing even a little work reduces your benefits significantly enough (and introduces so much bureaucracy into your life) that it's not work it. With a basic income, that disappears.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#223

Post by pessimizer »

huhtenberg wrote: post #167
ashray wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I didn't down vote you. Secondly, all I suggested was that the OP take cost of living into account for his calculations. This is hardly senseless considering that cost of living in most Swiss cities is higher than most tier 2 American cities. Swiss cities often rank at the top for most expensive cities in the world so yeah, I'd say cost of living is certainly on the high side. Of course they also rank a…

My tone is out of line, huh? How about your entire comment is factually wrong and yet you picked an advisory tone for it. The coke doesn't cost 6 franks, nor the cost of living is "extremely high". Also, you should realize that people who might be interested in these 2500CHF will not be living in Zurich, which is more of an exception in terms of cost of living in Switzerland rather than the norm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity

Look up Switzerland within any measurement of it.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#224

Post by ksrm »

xavi wrote: post #156
kijin wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "unaffordable". It's really annoying that people say "it's unaffordable" to mean "we don't want to pay", when the phrase is supposed to mean "we can't pay, we don't have enough money". I understand why people don't want to part with money, but at least let's be honest. If you sort everyone from poorest to richest, and plot their incomes on a graph, basic income just means that the slope is flatter than before…

I am all for more fair wealth distribution, but I don't see how this would be sustainable. With a basic income so high and higher taxes on the rich, what's the incentive to work for money? Hence, who would pay this? I think Georgism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism ), which doesn't tax income, but it only taxes land (so, not earned income) is a better approach to get a sustainable and more fair distribution of…

Yes! I've been saying this for a while. A basic income funded by a land value tax would solve a lot of society's problems, I feel. Unfortunately I think it's a bit too radical for most people.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#225

Post by ksrm »

cabalamat wrote: post #70
crygin wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GP is not a "political slogan", it's a statement of fact. If you'd like to rebut, which seems fairly unlikely, please provide both evidence of sloganhood (slogan, of course, means something specific: in part, that the aforementioned phrase has been used verbatim as a form of promotion. Cite the promotion) and additionally an actual rebuttal to the GP. That would actually be what this is an appropriate venue for,…

> The GP is not a "political slogan", it's a statement of fact. The two are not mutually exclusive.

They are if you're saying political slogans are not appropriate here. Facts are always appropriate.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#226

Post by sergiosgc »

tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income.

Half jokingly, I would say "Portuguese immigrants". I once went to Zurich for a conference and, on the day of the flight, was unshaved, poorly dressed (two hour sleep night before the fligbt). Man, was I drilled by the border police about my intentions in Switzerland. They were convinced I'd be moving there to serve tables or such (I'm a s/w engineer...). Apparently, there is a huge flow of my compatriots over to Swiss menial jobs.

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#227

Post by maurits »

homeomorphic wrote: post #113
tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

> One of the main questions about something like this is about who would do boring, low-paid work with this sort of basic income. My (probably wrong) impression was that hardly any Swiss work those kinds of jobs anymore as it is, and that the country relies on migrant temporary workers. How true is this? Also, your comment is great in general. It really made me think.

The poverty line is 2200, the median around 5700, and a starting cashier at one of the big supermarket chains will make 3200+ and benefits. [1]

[1]: http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/themen/03/04/bla...

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#228

Post by twoodfin »

drob wrote: post #132
adventured wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The piecemeal programs are on purpose. They're buying votes. The entire modern structure of the US Government is set up around vote buying, on both sides. There's zero chance they'll switch to direct payments. It does away with the power, which is the entire point of having a sprawling bureaucracy - so people like Reid and Boehner and Pelosi can act like they're little kings.

There's also a general disdain for the poor, rooted in just-world fallacy. As American politics would have you believe, the poor can't be trusted with cash. "They'll just spend it on drugs and plasma TVs!" Thus, the only politically salient form of aid to the poor is in the form of vouchers for specific things, e.g. food and medicine. This is dogma on the right, but it echoes surprisingly often from the left as well.

Is it really dogma on the right? At least in the right circles I run in, the EITC (extra cash for working: earn more, get more) is way more popular than food stamps.

I am absolutely in favor of cash as the best anti-poverty method. It's also the most respectful of people who are, after all, citizens. If you wouldn't like to be told by the government what foods you are permitted to buy for your family, why should you feel good about imposing those restrictions on anyone else?

Re: Swiss to vote on 2,500 franc basic income for every adult

#230

Post by swissass »

jre wrote: post #135
tikhonj wrote: post #2

A Swiss franc is currently worth a little bit more than a dollar, so this works out to $2800/month or $33600/year. By US standards, this actually seems to be a good salary: significantly better than working full time at minimum wage. It would cover all my current expenses handily. Of course, I'm young and single but by no means frugal. (I find that the little costs involved in worrying about my expenses easily outwei…

Just to put things in perspective (I'm swiss), 2500CHF is a really low salary in Switzerland. There is another initiative asking for a minimum wage of 4000CHF per month. The median swiss salary is close to 6000CHF[1]. The administration says the poverty line is around 2200CHF per month for someone living alone [2]. You can't really just convert to $ and say it's a lot of money. A lot of basic stuff like food, transpo…

Live near the border with France. Buy everything there in EUR.

Border is nonexistent for all practical purposes so this is very doable.

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