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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#501

Post by DCKing »

Fellshard wrote: post #440
DCKing wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree here, if you could make a reasonable case that the problems trace back the protocol. But my point here is that practically all issues at hand happen outside of what Wayland is used for. Wayland is a display protocol. Practically all of the pain people are experiencing has nothing to do with how Gnome/KDE/Sway really display things differently. The pain everybody experiences is that the realization that…

So there's a terminology conflation issue, then: people attacking Wayland proper for issues that are actually about the 'Wayland ecosystem'. I could see that generating increasing problems if there is no observable gameplan for or encouragement to develop those pieces people have come to expect of a full desktop stack. Mind that I have no formed opinion of Wayland myself, having not used it. Trying to deduce probable…

I would say that's a fair summary.

On Linux, there's X11 based desktops and "post-X11" desktops. "Post-X11" would involve implementations of Wayland and Freedesktop Portals [1], using libinput [2] - and some other things I'm forgetting. All these things don't depend on Wayland and run fine on X11 too (heck you can even run a Wayland compositor in an X11 window), but most of this stuff is pretty new, implementations have lots of QA issues, and application adoption is also not fantastic. On X11 you can just talk to the X11 socket directly for what you want as a workaround, but on post-X11 you have to adopt a new means of doing it. And that hurts.

[1]: https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/portal-docs.htm...

[2]: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/libinput/

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#502

Post by spion »

corty wrote: post #223
DCKing wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

It is actually one of the big, unfixable, conceptual problems of Wayland that all the effort is duplicated in each compositor. The Wayland concept pushes out most of the work to the DEs. That of course will result in tons of predictable inconsistency, incompatibility, bugs, delays, consolidations and general pain. Wayland devs are then generally in the lazy "worksforme, use sway (or whatever)" position while the user…

This is absolutely right, and wlroots is not a fix once you already have 2 implementations

Once that ship has sailed, what you want instead is a shared method of providing configuration. The goal is to have all 3 implementations read configuration (like DPI scaling etc) from one place. That way the user won't have to configure common things in 3 places to get any semblance of apps looking remotely close to eachother.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#503

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

folkrav wrote: post #346
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an amateur developer, I've often found that "Why would you want to do that?" is followed by an explanation of a much better way that I hadn't even thought of. Unfortunately in my experience it is often followed by an explanation of why what I'm trying to do isn't what I should want to do, as though I am not aware of my own goals and constraints.

You'd probably get the same question from a plumber if you asked him how to plug a pipe in a non-intuitive way. He has no way to know your pipes are laid out in a strange way, and the only spot you have left to add said junction without redoing your plumbing is back there - unless you tell him. Sure, some people are assholes, but that's just people. Nobody's in your mind, they can't guess your requirements, thought p…

> You'd probably get the same question from a plumber if you asked him how to plug a pipe in a non-intuitive way. He has no way to know your pipes are laid out in a strange way, and the only spot you have left to add said junction without redoing your plumbing is back there - unless you tell him.

Sure, but if I told a plumber they'd understand and help me find a solution to my problem. That isn't what happens on StackOverflow, instead they try to convince you that you have to change your problem to fit the solutions they're familiar with.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#504

Post by zamadatix »

leephillips wrote: post #419
zamadatix wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland gives a better way for those apps to draw on high resolution displays appropriately and at worst case if they don't know about Wayland they draw all the same as now via XWayland anyways. Ddevault actually created sway which is a Wayland i3 clone so his workflow probably wasn't all that different from yours on dwm.

OK. I may want to try it, in that case. Do you know if there is a good guide somewhere to how to do this? The idea seems a bit scary, as X11 is embedded pretty deeply into the system.

I did it on a fresh secondary install first just to get an understanding of what I wanted to do. If you were going for a more prepackaged system like KDE it's just a click but dwm -> sway is basically rebuilding everything you did in dwm and (at least for me) couldn't be done in one shot on a Saturday afternoon. I hear if you're coming from i3 it's dead simple but I was coming from KDE basically so had to figure everything out plus figure the wayland bits out.

As far as documentation I think this comment chain has the perfect set of links for that https://www.reddit.com/r/swaywm/comments/l54a1a/guidestutori... and the subreddit in general is a great source of information/tips on it. In general it's going to come down to 1) packages for sway, and wayland tools for things like clipboard/screenshot/xwayland/etc, and wayland compatibility on different toolkits/libraries 2) your sway config file which ties all of those packages together and personalizes the look, feel, and functionality of your workspace 3) envvars and other configurations to signal to GTK/Firefox/QT/etc you want to prefer wayland native (otherwise a lot of things still default to X11 which will run via xwayland).

Right now I'd classify it as "no harder than getting dwm/i3 working the way you want it for the first time but a lot of work". Also like I said it gives the apps the ability to understand per monitor DPI or fractional DPI and so on, not it makes every app work perfectly. E.g. FF has really solid and performant GPU accelerated rendering and video decoding you can enable on top of webrender in Wayland but it's a GTK app so if you have it run at 1.5x scale GTK is going to render it at 2x your screen resolution at 3x your configured DPI and downscale the output by 2x to end up at your resolution with 1.5x scale like you asked. Not much different than when it was on X11, except it's a bit more performant and they say it's easier to maintain/simpler than the X11 GPU acceleration code. On the flipside you have Chromium which now has the same GPU accelerated story in Wayland (with configuration) but understands how to do 1.5x without rescaling when running in Wayland and can move to another monitor that's 1x and scale appropriately.

tl;dr: it's a lot of work and a bit scary, don't jump unless you've really got some time and interest. If you do jump it does do what it says on the tin though and apps are only going to get more native Wayland support with time not less.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#505

Post by [deleted] »

NoodleIncident wrote: post #415
cturner wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remote windowing is a legacy of the era when universities ran dozens of dumb terminals from a server. It would be bizarre to pursue that in an era of hardware-accelerated graphics. If the Wayland design was weighed down by such things, it could never hope to be progress.

Universities still do that. It's not that bizarre of a use case

[deleted]

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#506

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

__s wrote: post #200
adkadskhj wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea i'm confused by this line. I'm a Linux-desktop-noob, but i was going to use i3-Wayland, aka Sway, and because i have an Nvidia i was told don't bother. Nvidia Drivers + Wayland sound broken? Now that may not be true.. but it seemed clear cut. I wanted to try Wayland really bad because i have a multi-DPI monitor setup, and Xorg is awful at that. Yet, it seemed too early. Nvidia isn't exactly some niche product. No…

It'll work with Nouveau. Nvidia refuses to implement an interface in their driver every other graphics driver implements Drew wrote a blog entirely devoted to the Nvidia issue: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html

Wow, so he writes an article about people being assholes about him not writing free extra stuff, and this other article saying literally “nvidia- fuck you” (and its “shitty consumers”) for not writing this other free extra stuff. He says that’s treating Linux users like shit, when a massive part of nvidia’s business is supporting Linux (GPGPU stuff), which works fantastically.

Reading OP, I figured it was righteously angry. Reading your article, I’m now figuring he’s just angry and abrasive. The OP article reads hypocritical after reading yours.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#507

Post by [deleted] »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #431
cturner wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remote windowing is a legacy of the era when universities ran dozens of dumb terminals from a server. It would be bizarre to pursue that in an era of hardware-accelerated graphics. If the Wayland design was weighed down by such things, it could never hope to be progress.

It is actually a common enough use case that Windows supports it now via Remote App, which is bit of a hack over RDP since RDP wasn't really designed for that. The use case may be relatively small but it undeniably still exists.

[deleted]

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#508

Post by dooglius »

Nextgrid wrote: post #299
Shared404 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always found systemd to be fine (I'm not a sysadmin, just prefer Linux on my PCs). I mostly agree, although I prefer OpenRC personally. I was bit by [* ] Stopping service 1:30 remaining too many times to really like SystemD, although I tolerate it on my daily driver these days.

This is not a systemd issue per-se. Whatever process it’s trying to stop is taking its time. Systemd doesn’t explicitly know what to do and most likely falls back to a reasonable compile-time default. The other comments already explained how to change the timeout per-unit, but I wonder how would you want a “perfect” init system to handle this? Hang forever until the process dies without any message (as far as I know…

The Windows behavior (prompt the user to kill anything manually) seems like the ideal behavior. Of course, this is tricky wrt dependency issues (e.g. if remote, you need to keep sshd and its dependencies alive in order to implemnent such a prompt), but hanging forever seems like a preferable fallback.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#509

Post by SEJeff »

gpm wrote: post #362
kuschku wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? If you buy a proprietary product with no actual linux support, then why are you complaining to the unpaid volunteer to fix it, and not the multi-billion dollar company you just made several hundred dollars richer?

It does support Linux, just fine, on x11... It's also the only option for a significant portion of machine learning software. Meanwhile we (or at least I) aren't asking any unpaid volunteers to fix anything. We're asking them to stop claiming their new software works for practically every use case when it doesn't, nothing more.

Bingo! I’m also asking him to maybe be less of a jerk about it.

He complains about users not using his software while also (literally) saying “fuck you nvidia”.

Hypocrite much? I’m a former GNOME software foundation member and was on the GNOME sysadmin team. I literally used to have root on gnome.org. I’m not the enemy here, but I’m being made out to be one because I use hardware that OSS stuff does not reliably support.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#510

Post by ceronman »

I'm writing this from my Fedora laptop where Wayland works extremely well. I want to say thank you to all the developers behind it!

I know that the process of moving to Wayland has been slow and hard. It is definitely not an easy task. I know it's frustrating when something that used to work does not any more. I know the process is not complete and there are still a few things that might not work well. But for god sake, these people are volunteers. Stop bullying them with angry posts complaining about their work. You likely don't pay a penny for all this great software that you are using. If you think that X is better, just use it, and live with its unfixable issues. If you don't like distros moving to Wayland, contribute the packages to keep using X, maintain X, these guys are offering you the keys! Please stop shitposting about the work of people trying to make things better.

Apple breaks things all the time and they don't get half of the heat. And they charge a lot of money.

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