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On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

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Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#51
post #16

This whole set of lies really makes me angry. Ever notice how it's only the most powerful of powerful who complain about "talent shortage"? Those who have the most to gain from reducing technology salaries? Sure, you might hear about it being a competitive market with high salaries and all, but that's what it's supposed to be! Engineering talent is in high demand and salaries are supposed to go up! If anything, they…

> If tech wants the best workers, there are plenty of willing and capable Americans ready to pick up the work.

Are the people currently available really the best?

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#52
post #48
post #16

This whole set of lies really makes me angry. Ever notice how it's only the most powerful of powerful who complain about "talent shortage"? Those who have the most to gain from reducing technology salaries? Sure, you might hear about it being a competitive market with high salaries and all, but that's what it's supposed to be! Engineering talent is in high demand and salaries are supposed to go up! If anything, they…

For a variety of economic and historical reasons, many software companies are only likely to succeed in the US. Without an influx of new people at a faster rate than education, increased salaries from demand will just shuffle existing engineers around. Instead of working at company A, they'll work at company B, earning a few percent extra; and company A, not being able to afford engineers, will either find something…

"Higher salaries aren't enough to increase the supply of labour very quickly."

They're enough to increase the supply of labor over the course of 5-10 years, which is plenty of time to keep the US competitive.

So really it's the companies refusing to pay higher wages in order to increase the talent pool who are holding America back.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#53
I wonder how long time this will live on the frontpage of HN before it gets "censored" to back as the discussion of PG's piece did?

With the all internet's "direct communication" and "netizens democracy" it is funny how we cannot have a non-bullshit discussion about a subject like this.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#54
post #25
post #14

Instead of a 'shortage of workers', the situation should be more adeptly described as a 'shortage of skilled workers'. I do think there are tech workers floating around, but the really good ones are hard to come by. Extending immigration helps, but does not solve it, as only a bunch of the pool are actually good talent. Maybe immigration needs to be tweaked to help filter down the pool even more, for example, raising…

>> would that necessarily result in higher wages for everyone else? Unless companies like Google relocate ( to where? ) then yes, wages would absolutely rise, because they don't allow WFH [1], ergo the only engineers available would be those in the Bay Area, NYC, etc. No, they wouldn't outsource critical infrastructure to places like India or China, who hacked them. I also don't see them picking up and leaving and go…

A lot of west coast companies are in Vancouver. It's not their headquarters but having a Vancouver office gives them access to large pools of foreign talent that they can't easily bring into the US. It's also conveniently located in the same time zone as California and Washington which reduces the difficulties of having remote workers.

Any standardized test will be gamed. Just look at all of the books and other resources you can find for how to solve the types of problems that get asked in coding interviews.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#55
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I've always been a programmer so I guess that's a marketable skill. The only thing that probably stops me from getting a 'day job' is that I'm too expensive and I like my freedom but it's not as if I would have trouble finding a job. Rather the opposite, offers from all over the globe with some regularity. I specialize in work for the financial sector and do the occasional interim management / project rescue jo…

> The worst possible position to be in is early hire in a start-up. You're going to see all of the downsides but only 1% of the upside of being a founder. Let's expand on this, because that's me and I'm quite happy (but also willing to be convinced otherwise :D). Financially, you're balancing lower salary with a potential for a large upside later. That upside can be great if you believe in the company and/or the valu…

It's simple math: the equity a founder gets is paid for with less cash than your salary downside as an early hire.

So it makes no sense at all to me. Just about the same risk and none of the upsides.

In contrast, a later hire comes on-board at a time that most of the risk has been absorbed or mitigated.

And in most cases there won't be any later hires because the company has folded.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#56
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By Paul Graham's description in that "Let in the 95%" article, companies are standing around with their dicks in their hands hoping that they find "the best" engineers, but on the cheap. If a company wants to hire 30 more "great" engineers, but isn't bumping up their pay to get at least 15 at a higher rate instead... there's something really off happening. It's standard economic theory that wages are sticky. I think…

And, besides the dick in their hands part, what Graham didn't mention in his warm christmas tale of meritocracy, they also make deals to not competete against others on talent, to fix (i.e. ruin further) what is already an extremely dysfunctional market (when did you last ask your coworker what she made?).

How can Paul Graham sit there and not mention the anti-competitive and illegal collusion of the top tech employers while he tells us to vote against our own financial self-interest?

He wants us to vote even more money into his pockets, and vote to undermine our wages, and he doesn't even give the smallest mention to the fact that the most respectable and respected tech employers have been fucking us over for years!

So disingenuous, so pernicious.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#57

This whole immigration thing sounds like an excellent opportunity for someone to put together a better way to work remotely. We're all supposed to be internet savvy, why can't we come up with something better than skype and github? Is something better even required? Why the emphasis on getting people into the country? We're selling virtual presence solutions to industry and telepresence to doctors and we're trying fo…

Tele-presence has a long way to go, and the network infrastructure too, but it will obviously, eventually, get to the point where it's indistinguishable from being in the same room, minus the physical contact. But to your point, it's not even a given that would help much.

Even with that, you still suffer mostly from time zones. You're just not going to collaborate the same ways with someone on the other side of the planet. That just means barriers to entry and more opportunity for those brave enough to try and ultimately get a system that works for them.

I think there's a remote-work bias which isn't fully born out from the evidence. It helps if you can somehow start with perfectly trustworthy peers, because I think a large part of hiring local is keeping tabs and keeping control. If you already know people who happen to be remote, versus trying to hire someone you've never met before remotely, the former can work perfectly fine, the later is [currently] nearly impossible.

There's probably legal and tax issues to deal with too, but I'm going to hand wave assume they do not negate the potential benefits and could just as easily work out in favor of the foreign independent contractor vs. local salaried employee.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#58
post #16

This whole set of lies really makes me angry. Ever notice how it's only the most powerful of powerful who complain about "talent shortage"? Those who have the most to gain from reducing technology salaries? Sure, you might hear about it being a competitive market with high salaries and all, but that's what it's supposed to be! Engineering talent is in high demand and salaries are supposed to go up! If anything, they…

Would be nice if someone extrapolated how the wages would look like today if the H1-B program wasn't put into place. Would programmers be making WallStreet salaries? How would that have impacted the start-up ecosystem? Also, numerous H1-Bs are the core of companies like Google, Microsoft, Facebook etc. How would things have looked without any of them?

There is a very reasonable case to be made that H1-B's in particular actually push domestic salaries up at the expense of foreign salaries.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#59
post #2

Just on the subject of programmer salaries, I was talking with someone who had much more experience in the computing industry than myself and he pointed out something I'd never known. He said that programmer salaries from pre-bubble days was six-figures, and that we're still in that range, and not higher is proof that salaries have been kept low. Six-figures today is not what six-figures was worth in 1998. Inflation…

This is something I realized just a few days ago, looking back.

11 years ago I left a Silicon Valley software company's IT department, where I was making $85,000. Doing standard IT work. 11 years ago.

A lot has happened since then, but no I don't think wages have been going up at all.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would be nice if someone extrapolated how the wages would look like today if the H1-B program wasn't put into place. Would programmers be making WallStreet salaries? How would that have impacted the start-up ecosystem? Also, numerous H1-Bs are the core of companies like Google, Microsoft, Facebook etc. How would things have looked without any of them?

And where would wages be if the biggest tech employers had not been blatantly colluding to depress wages, using illegal anti-competitive tactics? Paul Graham advocates for free trade when it will increase the value of his portfolio and the wealth of his friends. He doesn't say a word about how free trade has been undermined by the illegal collusion of Facebook, Google, and Apple.

Agreed, there does seem to be a pretty asymmetric view of the effects of free trade by the VC crowd and the media.

Case in point, there has been an almost complete radio silence in the tech and mainstream media about the wage suppression related class action lawsuit that is ongoing. There was a brief flurry of reports at the beginning, but ever since Aug, when the judge rejected the proposed settlement, there has been no mention of the lawsuit at all.

The only people who keep the issue alive are the rank and file tech folks as witnessed by the comments section of any article related to tech wages and immigration.

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