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On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

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Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#31

Post by Terr_ »

bradleyjg wrote: post #12
jacobolus wrote: post #11

On one of the previous threads about this topic, someone suggested that accepting H1-B applicants in order from higher to lower salaries instead of based on a lottery would clear up a lot of the lottery spots that currently go to the below-market-wage-indentured-servant type shops to be used for more deserving companies and applicants. Seems like a solid change to me, without an obvious downside. (But I am not an exp…

As much as it may sometimes seem like it is, the H1-B isn't a programming or IT visa. It's applicable to a wide range of specialty occupations, across the entire nation. The suggested change would block out virtually all applicants from many other professions.

That's true, but... well, devil's-advocate time: "So what?"

I mean, if the Foo profession has huge salaries and crowds the Bar profession from getting any foreign workers... Did the nation really need to import those Bar workers that badly in the first place?

Carving out reservations for particular professions/industries is really just a big cake for lobbyists to fight over.

I think the far bigger issue isn't the professions, but the skewing effects of cost-of-living or non-salary compensation, or professions which our economy already doesn't value "appropriately" for some other reason.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#32

Post by curiousDog »

gsibble wrote: post #16

This whole set of lies really makes me angry. Ever notice how it's only the most powerful of powerful who complain about "talent shortage"? Those who have the most to gain from reducing technology salaries? Sure, you might hear about it being a competitive market with high salaries and all, but that's what it's supposed to be! Engineering talent is in high demand and salaries are supposed to go up! If anything, they…

Would be nice if someone extrapolated how the wages would look like today if the H1-B program wasn't put into place. Would programmers be making WallStreet salaries? How would that have impacted the start-up ecosystem? Also, numerous H1-Bs are the core of companies like Google, Microsoft, Facebook etc. How would things have looked without any of them?

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#33

Post by jacquesm »

wdewind wrote: post #27
jacquesm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the reality for an entrepreneur coming out of a business is usually not super easy. Few companies are looking to hire people who ran unsuccessful businesses - the entrepreneur skillset tends to make it hard to market oneself. That's just about 100% opposite to my experience, both firsthand and by observing others. Why do you state this with such certainty? Keep in mind that there are huge differences from count…

True that I don't have any citation, like you only going off my own experience. My own experience in hiring has been that short of consultant positions ex-CEOs don't have specific enough skillsets to be put to work in many places in a company. When I have worked with them they have been unmitigated disasters. I'm curious about your experiences because, correct me if I'm wrong, I think you were pretty successful early…

Well, I've always been a programmer so I guess that's a marketable skill. The only thing that probably stops me from getting a 'day job' is that I'm too expensive and I like my freedom but it's not as if I would have trouble finding a job. Rather the opposite, offers from all over the globe with some regularity.

I specialize in work for the financial sector and do the occasional interim management / project rescue job, high pay, very intense and fun to do with both a defined beginning and end.

As for the failures, they're too numerous to recount :) Having one 'win' and a string of failures still adds up to a win (for me), but it was a pretty slow road upwards with one stroke of good luck in between somewhere. For the most part it was simply hard work.

The first contracting job I landed sustained me for quite a while, you're definitely right in that (and it became a very large success over the longer term but I did not see any revenues from that).

CEOs without specific skill-sets are usually not the best CEOs to begin with, that might be where the failure correlation comes in. I don't think I'm the best CEO either (or CTO for that matter), but I know how to spot talent and when to get the hell out the way and I think those are the major skills you should have as a manager at any level (as well as knowing how to keep people motivated).

As for the parent comment: I think it's spot on. The worst possible position to be in is early hire in a start-up. You're going to see all of the downsides but only 1% of the upside of being a founder. If you're going to be taking that much risk you might as well be a founder.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#34

Post by no_wave »

sosuke wrote: post #2

Just on the subject of programmer salaries, I was talking with someone who had much more experience in the computing industry than myself and he pointed out something I'd never known. He said that programmer salaries from pre-bubble days was six-figures, and that we're still in that range, and not higher is proof that salaries have been kept low. Six-figures today is not what six-figures was worth in 1998. Inflation…

By Paul Graham's description in that "Let in the 95%" article, companies are standing around with their dicks in their hands hoping that they find "the best" engineers, but on the cheap. If a company wants to hire 30 more "great" engineers, but isn't bumping up their pay to get at least 15 at a higher rate instead... there's something really off happening.

It's standard economic theory that wages are sticky. I think for a while, at least the past three years, junior developers (especially in web dev) have been overvalued and seniors undervalued. From my recent job search, I think this is starting to change, which is why the whole "not enough engineers" is reaching a fever pitch (ie, we can't find seniors at the traditionally understood market rate, as everyone realizes seniors are a better buy right now).

As it stands, career programmers in the US who are good but not celebrities generally try to move into management/consulting/whatever because their career stalls otherwise. Solve that problem (PAY MORE) and we've got our programmers.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#35

Post by ricardobeat »

jacquesm wrote: post #23

This whole immigration thing sounds like an excellent opportunity for someone to put together a better way to work remotely. We're all supposed to be internet savvy, why can't we come up with something better than skype and github? Is something better even required? Why the emphasis on getting people into the country? We're selling virtual presence solutions to industry and telepresence to doctors and we're trying fo…

I believe we have plenty of tools that do a great job of facilitating communication, project management and work activities for remote workers. What is missing is the willingness from companies to accept these workers, not the tools.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#36

Post by DenisM »

jacobolus wrote: post #11

On one of the previous threads about this topic, someone suggested that accepting H1-B applicants in order from higher to lower salaries instead of based on a lottery would clear up a lot of the lottery spots that currently go to the below-market-wage-indentured-servant type shops to be used for more deserving companies and applicants. Seems like a solid change to me, without an obvious downside. (But I am not an exp…

The abovementioned comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8801046

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#37

Post by waterlesscloud »

jacquesm wrote: post #23

This whole immigration thing sounds like an excellent opportunity for someone to put together a better way to work remotely. We're all supposed to be internet savvy, why can't we come up with something better than skype and github? Is something better even required? Why the emphasis on getting people into the country? We're selling virtual presence solutions to industry and telepresence to doctors and we're trying fo…

Deficient management skills.

And worse, management that won't acknowledge it's deficient.

Managing a remote team is a skill, or more accurately a set of skills. No, you probably can't do it well right out of the gate. Yes, you'll probably have to work harder at it than you would having a team in one open plan office. Yes, it will take you time to learn.

But if you're really being held back by a lack of engineering talent, if that's genuinely keeping you from being more successful, you'd be much better off if you put the time and effort into learning it.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#38

Post by bradleyjg »

jacobolus wrote: post #26
bradleyjg wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That'd be fine if the applicant pool was first sorted by profession and geography and like compared against like. But how do you decide the distribution of visas across those sub-groups?

The current process has the advantage of being (somewhat) simple, but it clearly gets gamed in ways that lead to far-from-optimal outcomes. Maybe figuring out a better alternative system would be a bit complicated, but it seems like it should be possible.

The current system isn't simple. The H1B is only one non-immigrant visa category. There's an entire alphabet soup of other categories, and that's not even getting into the permanent resident visas.

I certainly agree that the system could be rationalized, I've got a lot of my own ideas, but most reform in this area must pass through Congress. I've been paying attention to this issue for over a decade and half now, and one thing I've learned is that there isn't much enthusiasm on either side of the political aisle for major changes to the legal immigration system. Every once in a while a strong lobbying group will get a tweak or added numbers to a particular program, but the real political interest is the stock and flow of un- and semi- skilled workers from Mexico and Latin American.

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#39

Post by gatehouse »

bradleyjg wrote: post #24
nitrogen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of the industry, if the H-1B is designed to allow employers to hire specialists they can't find locally, then a salary-sorted approval process should still be desirable. Machine shops fighting over top-1% welders with deep materials science knowledge should be no different to software shops fighting over top-1% developers with deep computer science knowledge.

That'd be fine if the applicant pool was first sorted by profession and geography and like compared against like. But how do you decide the distribution of visas across those sub-groups?

Price

Re: On Immigration, Engineers Simply Don’t Trust VCs

#40

Post by walterbell »

winter_blue wrote: post #4

A fundamental question not being answered is: Who gets to come to America ? Right now, our system massively favors immediate relatives and refugees, and only lets in a trickle of everyone else. If you are a person who wishes to move to the US, don't have relatives here, and are not a refugee -- then good luck, because you'll have a really hard time getting in. Stories of people who literally sell everything to get a…

There's also 50,000 annual "diversity visa" immigrants from countries with low immigration rates to the US.
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