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Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

america.aljazeera.com

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Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#51

Post by rollo »

claudius wrote: post #46
rollo wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are back to cold war levels, even further than that. And it's a mistake, the USA guarantees our security right now, since the EU states reduced their military to a point that they are unable to deal with an aggressor. Nor is there the political will to deal with it.

A single nuke is sufficient to deal with any reasonable aggressor and nonreasonable aggressors are rarely if ever a serious threat to any country. As such, it is quite perfectly senseless to spend billions on tanks and fighters when your next-door neighbour is happy sharing their nukes with you.

It's precisely the other way arround. This sketch is a humorous but precise assessment of this strategic issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX_d_vMKswE Relying on nuclear deterrent against modern hybrid warfare means you will lose.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#52

Post by rollo »

bildung wrote: post #34
rollo wrote: post #25

As a German I don't see this as an issue. Some German politicians have deep connections to enemy states, so why wouldn't the NSA spy on them? It's in our best interest even, because those politicans are a danger to Europe and Germany itself. You can also see the problem with Germany and France not behaving as allies of the USA in the war against Russia.

As a German I don't see this as an issue. Some German politicians have deep connections to enemy states, so why wouldn't the NSA spy on them? It's in our best interest even, because those politicans are a danger to Europe and Germany itself. As a German I very much see that as an issue. If there indeed are polititions having "deep connections to enemy states" (who do you mean?), I want the democratic process to handl…

We need it because Germany has shown it is unable to do the right thing or even act in its own interest without external help.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#53

Post by happyscrappy »

Kenji wrote: post #40
susi22 wrote: post #28

Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world…

"After all, it's the US who's providing security to most of the western world." If I do what the bully tells me to do, he leaves me alone and attacks other people. That's not security, that's abuse.

If you work hard enough you can make anyone appear to be a victim, but that is not productive work.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#54

Post by ThePhysicist »

mschuster91 wrote: post #35
ThePhysicist wrote: post #19

Well, it was well known in government circles (and beyond) that the US are spying on everyone including their allies, so the fact that they paid a mole in the German secret service shouldn't have been too surprising to the German government. The fact that he got uncovered and that the whole affair got public is a serious problem for Angela Merkel though: The German public already perceived her as way too soft towards…

> which would be a huge economic loss for the US LOL, I hope you're not being serious. The only ones TTIP and friends are going to benefit is Big Capital and American producers of chlorine-treated chicken. No thanks, it's enough you fuck up your own country, no need to fuck up Europe too.

Well, according to the E.U. the treaty could generate 100 BN € in revenue and more than 1 million jobs both in US and EU, so even if those numbers should be off by a factor of two it's still pretty big...

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#55

Post by znowi »

susi22 wrote: post #28

Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world…

> America: Watch out how far you take the bullying

America has enough power and influence to shut down any possible discontent - both within the country and of their minion states in Europe. It's been ruling over EU for many decades now and knows well how to handle "unpopular opinions".

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#56

Post by apidoc »

susi22 wrote: post #28

Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world…

If it not "hurt" anybody, where is than the problem that they spy the US-Citizens too?

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#57

Post by kgarten »

fit2rule wrote: post #29
susi22 wrote: post #28

Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world…

>After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. The US is not just Germanys' biggest partner - it controls Germanys' sovereignty. The German intelligence services are all run from Washington. When Merkel says 'it does not matter', its because its really not relevant that America is spying on Germany: its allowed to. Germany lost WW2, and has not had a restoration of the sovereignty of its intelligence servi…

wondering why your comment is down-voted. The reaction of German politicians (CDU and SPD) underlines your point: Since the Snowden leaks they keep quite and hope it passes, because they know they cannot do anything against it (they are in the same boat) ... If Germany were a partner to US, it would make a fuzz about it.

Another hint about the sovereignty: there are still army bases on German ground, from which drones are controlled and people are killed ...

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#58

Post by susi22 »

apidoc wrote: post #56
susi22 wrote: post #28

Merkel doesn't care that much and she --even though I hate to say it-- is right that we shouldn't. This spying case isn't a big deal. It doesn't hurt Germany. Also the spying on her phone last year. She didn't really care all that much. After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. It's the US who's providing security to most of the western world…

If it not "hurt" anybody, where is than the problem that they spy the US-Citizens too?

Sorry, I meant /this/ spying incident. The minster of the interior already said that the documents didn't really have anything important in it. The guys received ~$25k for the documents. It's not a huge deal actually. It was very very stupid of the American to do this and if I were Obama I'd be mad at the NSA. Why? Because the risk was big but the reward was tiny. You didn't gain much from the documents, yet you now have another huge dent in your relations (again!) and it's starting to piss of German politians & Germans.

America doesn't realize it fully yet, but it's making itself very unpopular in the last 5 years and this will be a huge problem in the future when all that's left is UK, Mexico & Canada (Maybe India) as your friends.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#60

Post by rollo »

tonymon wrote: post #45
michaelt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After all, USA is the biggest partner of the EU/Germany. Germany can't afford a dent in the relationship with the US. The problem with "They're assholes but we'll let them do what they like because we need them" is America isn't the only country Germany needs. Germany also imports a lot of oil and natural gas from Russia, for example. And lots of electronics and manufactured goods from China.

The thing is that Russia and China are not heavily spying on Germany, despite the fact, that they don't even have such close relationships as US and Germany [before]

Lol. Of course they are, but German people are not very smart. They're upset their allies spy on them for their own protection, but if their enemies do that it's normal and not even a reason to cool relationships!
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