Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#11

Post by Tomte » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 11:21 AM UTC

iSnow wrote: post #8

Svip wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently, most of the data NSA collects is useless. And even with that data, other intelligence agencies (read: other countries') are often better informed than the Americans. Having the most amount of data is not the same has having the best intelligence agency. How can data be useful if you don't know what it's for? German intelligence is likely more sophisticated than American intelligence.[0] Of course, as with…

>German intelligence is likely more sophisticated than American intelligence. Doubtful. German intelligence is probably as effective as Wally from Dilbert. However, shelving TTIP and/or expelling the US ambassador would make a statement. And of course - in the long run - not sitting on our asses but building and effective intelligence service ourselves.

That's the big guessing game everyone is playing here: is our intelligence community really as clueless and incapable as we Germans tend to assume? Or is that just a masterful deceit?

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#12

Post by perlgeek » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 11:27 AM UTC

As a German, I find the German reaction really pathetic.

No, don't ask somebody for assistance who has just proven (again) that you can't trust him on that level.

Do your own investigations, and find out who was involved. If any of the involved people were US diplomats, expel them from the country (and escalate to the UN? dunno if that's done). If not, go the normal route through the justice system.

On a political level, decouple German intelligence agencies stronger from the US ones, and drive out as much US intelligence as possible.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#13

Post by Svip » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 11:30 AM UTC

iSnow wrote: post #8

Svip wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently, most of the data NSA collects is useless. And even with that data, other intelligence agencies (read: other countries') are often better informed than the Americans. Having the most amount of data is not the same has having the best intelligence agency. How can data be useful if you don't know what it's for? German intelligence is likely more sophisticated than American intelligence.[0] Of course, as with…

>German intelligence is likely more sophisticated than American intelligence. Doubtful. German intelligence is probably as effective as Wally from Dilbert. However, shelving TTIP and/or expelling the US ambassador would make a statement. And of course - in the long run - not sitting on our asses but building and effective intelligence service ourselves.

As Tomte points out, this is largely a guessing game we are playing. How can we really know one way or the other?

But I concede, German intelligence is likely the weaker link in European intelligence agencies (and weaker than American as well), not from lack of skill or knowhow, but a political inability to pursue it. Germany's recent history has left Germans rather on the unfavourable side of intelligence agencies and surveillance. I would even imagine the Allies imposing restrictions on the Germans following the Second World War.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#14

Post by wwwwwwwwww » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 11:34 AM UTC

perlgeek wrote: post #12

As a German, I find the German reaction really pathetic. No, don't ask somebody for assistance who has just proven (again) that you can't trust him on that level. Do your own investigations, and find out who was involved. If any of the involved people were US diplomats, expel them from the country (and escalate to the UN? dunno if that's done). If not, go the normal route through the justice system. On a political le…

yes - make an enemy out of the most powerful intelligence agency in the world

in fact lets expel their embassy too!

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#15

Post by terranstyler » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 11:39 AM UTC

perlgeek wrote: post #12

As a German, I find the German reaction really pathetic. No, don't ask somebody for assistance who has just proven (again) that you can't trust him on that level. Do your own investigations, and find out who was involved. If any of the involved people were US diplomats, expel them from the country (and escalate to the UN? dunno if that's done). If not, go the normal route through the justice system. On a political le…

The reason they don't do it, in spite of nearly everyone [1] distrusting the US gov't, makes me wonder what kind of leverage the US secret services have.

It also lends some credence to the "Germany was never really souvereign" theory.

[1] Just check the comment sections in the major German newspapers.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#16

Post by r0h1n » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 11:41 AM UTC

I'd say Germany is merely posturing with the US in order to win a seat on the "Five Eyes" spying alliance.

Angela Merkel eyes place for Germany in US intelligence club - http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/e2492a3a-3d7a-11e3-9928-00144...

US lawmakers push for German entrance to Five Eyes spy alliance - http://www.dw.de/us-lawmakers-push-for-german-entrance-to-fi...

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#17

Post by arethuza » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 11:42 AM UTC

Svip wrote: post #13

iSnow wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>German intelligence is likely more sophisticated than American intelligence. Doubtful. German intelligence is probably as effective as Wally from Dilbert. However, shelving TTIP and/or expelling the US ambassador would make a statement. And of course - in the long run - not sitting on our asses but building and effective intelligence service ourselves.

As Tomte points out, this is largely a guessing game we are playing. How can we really know one way or the other? But I concede, German intelligence is likely the weaker link in European intelligence agencies (and weaker than American as well), not from lack of skill or knowhow, but a political inability to pursue it. Germany's recent history has left Germans rather on the unfavourable side of intelligence agencies a…

One odd thing about German intelligence - they have their own set of Russian launched synthetic aperture radar spy satellites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAR-Lupe

Germany has the synthetic aperture radar birds and France runs optical satellites.

I'd love to know who they spend most time watching.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#18

Post by terranstyler » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 11:43 AM UTC

wwwwwwwwww wrote: post #14

perlgeek wrote: post #12

As a German, I find the German reaction really pathetic. No, don't ask somebody for assistance who has just proven (again) that you can't trust him on that level. Do your own investigations, and find out who was involved. If any of the involved people were US diplomats, expel them from the country (and escalate to the UN? dunno if that's done). If not, go the normal route through the justice system. On a political le…

yes - make an enemy out of the most powerful intelligence agency in the world in fact lets expel their embassy too!

Well, given the alternative and some modest regard for basic human rights (such as, e.g., stated in the German constitution [1]), they are legally bound to do exactly that.

[1] http://dejure.org/gesetze/GG/10.html

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#19

Post by ThePhysicist » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 11:50 AM UTC

Well, it was well known in government circles (and beyond) that the US are spying on everyone including their allies, so the fact that they paid a mole in the German secret service shouldn't have been too surprising to the German government.

The fact that he got uncovered and that the whole affair got public is a serious problem for Angela Merkel though: The German public already perceived her as way too soft towards the US during the latest NSA affair, so if she doesn't act this time she will lose a lot of goodwill in the German population. Judging from her recent media appearances, it seems actually likely that she will act in one way or another.

A probable "retaliation" could be to cancel the free trade treaty that's currently being negotiated between the US and the EU (and which, like most EU projects, depends heavily on Germany's consent), which would be a huge economic loss for the US (and to th EU as well of course). So, although this move was "business as usual" for the US, it could have pretty serious consequences for them. Makes me really wonder if the return-on-investment of the current US surveillance strategy is actually positive, or if it will result in a huge loss of economic power and trust for them.

Re: Germany turns up pressure in suspected US spy case

#20

Post by sidcool » Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 11:53 AM UTC

qgi wrote: post #9

sidcool wrote: post #3

The conspiracy theorist in me tells me that this might be a staged drama by US-German authorities to instill confidence in German citizens. Or may be to deceive Russia.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Well stated, who coined this one?