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Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

economist.com

51–60 of 81 posts

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#51
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is perhaps more easily understood when you know that the Jewish culture places enormous focus on educating the next generation and on critical thinking" Or maybe it is even better understood in terms of genetic differences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence .

I doubt it. Culture is key. Being in the right place at the right time, having a network of folks interested in your welfare, etc is key. Think of it this way -- how many smart people from school or childhood do you know who didn't amount to much, despite the raw ability to achieve. Now think about your work life -- how many times have worked for or witnessed a blithering idiot in charge of thing at your job or a cus…

Well to be cynical - if most people are blithering idiots and most people don't amount to much, it could be true that most smart people don't amount to much and most people in charge are idiots while still true that being smart makes you much more likely to be in charge :o)

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#52

Sweden might be very equal but also a country without major wars or revolutions for centuries. Also probably was industrialized for long. Same for UK, actually.

England, and more recently the UK, has been almost continuously at war for most of its history. Big wars, small wars, but wars.

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Culture" is an empty explanation. The question is: were your odds of getting married and having children as a Medieval Ashkenazi Jew better if you were smarter? I'm descended from these people and I don't know.

Over that time period is it more likely to be selective pressure or a founder effect? A founder effect doesn't require continuous selective pressure, it just requires a population with a small group of founders from whom the entire population is descended. For instance, a group that splits off from a larger group, or passes through a population bottleneck. In this situation a set of genes -- inherited from the founde…

That could be, but with a founder effect in a population whose European contribution came from a small number of females, we then have to expect either:

* The intelligence came from the European converted-in founder females. In which case, how come we don't see similar intelligence averages in similar European populations?

* Or, the intelligence came from the male Jewish founders. In which case, how come we don't see similar intelligence averages in other Jewish populations?

Both questions can, of course, be accompanied by, "OR DO WE!?!?!?! dun dun duuuun".

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#54
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is perhaps more easily understood when you know that the Jewish culture places enormous focus on educating the next generation and on critical thinking" Or maybe it is even better understood in terms of genetic differences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence .

Mental exercise: 1. Take the text replace Ashkenazi Jew with Arian 2. Trust me they (the nazis) had they scientists to proof exactly the same but with Arians. And see how you kidnap "science" in the same of ideology. That's actually pretty ugly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#55
post #10

It's intersting how generations of successfull girls each marrying someone higher in society than her parents wouldn't be traced by this study on surnames.

Successful women tend to keep their surname after marriage. I did. Some consider me mildly successful I guess? It is also because I didn't want to lose my identity I had for 30 years, and I am not the property of my husband.

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#57
post #49

They don't seem to account for non-socioeconomic factors like genetics and nurturing. I'm not saying aristocrats are a master race, just that if your ancestors won competitions, you may have inherited whatever genetic factors helped them. These might include abilities for collaboration, "reading" other people, intelligence... and perhaps competitiveness, controlled aggression and ruthlessness. Nurture would include v…

The article did suggest upbringing as a possible cause. If genetics were that big of a factor wouldn't we see the two groups dividing over time? Instead the article says that the odds of surnames having the same economic value are the same after 300 to 500 years. I assume all of the genetic traits you listed are more fluid than that.

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#58
post #55
post #10

It's intersting how generations of successfull girls each marrying someone higher in society than her parents wouldn't be traced by this study on surnames.

Successful women tend to keep their surname after marriage. I did. Some consider me mildly successful I guess? It is also because I didn't want to lose my identity I had for 30 years, and I am not the property of my husband.

Many of us are under the impression that this option is relatively recent. That is, historically you didn't have a choice as to whether to keep your name or not. That not the case?

(Or course, I'm curious how much choice anyone had. Many "surnames" that we know are either occupation or city of origin based. Or am I off on that, as well?)

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#59
post #8

Interesting article, but I was a bit disappointed; I was expecting it to look at names originally derived from occupations, like Baker or Smith. Their approach obviously makes more sense; it's just not as much fun.

Actually yeah, that's what I thought too from the title.
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