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NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

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Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#51
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He referenced the bill shortly thereafter: http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=S05725&term=2013 http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A07844&term...

English, specifically whatever dialect that is, is a horrible medium for encoding laws. Further, the diffing format used there is atrocious. Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet?

> English, specifically whatever dialect that is, is a horrible medium for encoding laws.

Compared to what, exactly?

> Further, the diffing format used there is atrocious.

That's a really common problem.

> Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet?

Mostly, because there is no first party money in it, and there's considerable expense to do it as a third-party solution, because of exactly the problem that this is directed at solving.

There's quite a bit of money in third-party solutions, which are provided by several vendors to the people who have the money and motivation to pay for them (people who professionally deal with the law), as components of wider research suites that cover more than just statute law (including many copyright-protected sources).

Third-party solutions that use only the free-of-copyright public information don't have a lot of market, and would have a lot of expense to create and maintain (not the system, so much as keeping the data current.)

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#52
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He referenced the bill shortly thereafter: http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=S05725&term=2013 http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A07844&term...

English, specifically whatever dialect that is, is a horrible medium for encoding laws. Further, the diffing format used there is atrocious. Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet?

English is not the problem here. You can write sufficiently clear language (which is not formated with caps lock..) in English. The problem is just the custom in United States of writing complex laws instead of writing the main points and letting the courts interpret it. For example, here's[1] a reasonably sane-looking law written in English.

1. http://www.finlex.fi/en/laki/kaannokset/1994/en19940543.pdf

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet it does get annoying trying to find ways to spin your boss's servitude to a cartel of car dealerships as somehow being for the benefit of the public.

I think the dealership cartel sucks, but that doesn't mean anything in opposition to it is an unreserved good.

Of course not but the crux of the argument is do you want the market to sort out the good and bad business models or do you want politicians to to do the sorting and to prohibit any deviation from their proscribed models?

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#54
post #46

I general, I find it bizarre that a law should exist, that protects some middleman position. Isn't it nonsense to protect such monopoly through the law? How can it coexist with the antitrust regulations?

If you find a law that's been on the books for a long time "bizarre" show some restraint. There is likely a very good set of reasons for its existence. Go and research those and see if you agree with them or not. But these "I'm totally bewildered how could this possibly be?!" comments add very little.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congratulations, you missed the point.

Feel free to restate it in such a way that it isn't so easily missed.

His tweet makes the claim that 'auto dealers' specifically are the ones trying to get the bill passed. I was even so quick as to use the wrong terminology 'automaker', which is a different thing entirely.

Auto dealers are basically the guys trying to screw you over on the price of a new car. In other words, NOT Ford, or Toyota, or Volvo. But the guys selling the cars.

This is equivalent to, for example, mistaking the guy who runs a BP gas station with BP the company. Boycotting the gas station does jack shit to the bottom line of BP, though it does make for nasty public relations.

On top of that, he does so with no evidence that 'auto dealers' are even behind this bill being pushed through. Maybe it is the auto makers and not the dealers. Maybe it's a different source entirely, like the oil industry. Who the fuck knows?

And that's my point - this is an ambiguous incendiary tweet alleging something we don't know and can't prove. The only thing that's a real fact is there's a bill in New York and Elon Musk wants you to get mad about it.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#56
I applaud Tesla for trying super hard to disrupt the current selling model that's existed for decades. I understand why existing participants in the market wonder why this new competitor can play by a different set of rules. The irony is that once (if) Tesla starts selling cars in significant volume their purely direct/internet/word of mouth model will break down and they'll probably find themselves....... establishing dealerships!

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#57
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He referenced the bill shortly thereafter: http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=S05725&term=2013 http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A07844&term...

English, specifically whatever dialect that is, is a horrible medium for encoding laws. Further, the diffing format used there is atrocious. Law is code. Why haven't we fixed this yet?

I recently read Robert Caro's biography of Robert Moses. RM built most major highways and parks in NY state, and effectively became an absolute ruler in his domain. For 40 years he exercised near total control. It made me understand the political process completely different way.

For RM, the 'broken' differencing format was a feature, not a bug. It allowed him to slip though all kinds of law changes without people understanding what he was up to. The book has many, many examples of exactly this differencing format being put to use to gain power.

The point about the differencing format is more broadly true - prior to reading the book, I thought politics was about having the right ideas, and explaining them clearly. But the book compellingly argues that politics is really about obtaining and wielding power. The people who thrive in politics are more interested in power than ideas.

It is a book that is well worth reading, especially if you are an idealistic programmer (like I was) who cannot understand why we can't just 'clean politics up.' (Also, Caro's LBJ biography is awesome, with similar themes.)

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#58
post #46

I general, I find it bizarre that a law should exist, that protects some middleman position. Isn't it nonsense to protect such monopoly through the law? How can it coexist with the antitrust regulations?

About 50% of the human race is middlemen, and they don't take kindly to being eliminated

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#59
post #3

Any evidence to back up Musk's claim? Being a Senator's employee must be annoying sometimes. "Hi, I'm calling to defend Telsa Motors because its CEO told me to. No, I do not know anything more about the topic I am calling about"

It would be interesting to hear the other side of the story here.

Re: NY auto dealers trying to shut down Tesla Motors in NY

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet it does get annoying trying to find ways to spin your boss's servitude to a cartel of car dealerships as somehow being for the benefit of the public.

The current arrangement came about as a means to benefit the manufacturers. The carrot was that they in turn would not attempt to circumvent the dealer system. Hence manufactures would produce cars in volume and sell them to the dealers. The dealers who made that investment in buying those cars then sold them for a profit. Dealers are protected by these same laws usually geographically. This in some way insulated the…

Mostly irrelevant, as Tesla was never part of the dealer system, and in most states the laws that protect the cartel do not apply to them. Yes, I would buy certain cars without a test drive, but I admit that's unusual. If a test drive is essential then Tesla's attempt to sell directly might fail, but that doesn't justify laws to forbid them from selling.
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