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FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

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Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#51

Post by dmoy »

javagram wrote: post #17
Urd- wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a crazed gunman will (A) go through the scanner and (B) will not open fire when their weapon is detected.

Gun and weapon detection is still useful to stop shootings and stabbings that arise out of fights, where one member may suddenly present and use a previously concealed weapon. Agreed that the usefulness against a crazed gunman is less clear, although crazies do not always have a rational plan. If the weapon was concealed in a backpack or something the security may be able to tackle them before they access it. If they…

> Gun and weapon detection is still useful to stop shootings and stabbings that arise out of fights, where one member may suddenly present and use a previously concealed weapon.

Which might be a reasonable thing to aim for? It was mentioned up thread there's >100 school shootings/yr. The vast, vast majority (>>90%) of those are not the "crazy person randomly shoots up school" type, but rather the "two people in a fight / two groups in a fight / targeted revenge on single person".

The former is tracked as an active shooting incident, by the FBI. In 2023 there were 3 such incidents: https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/2023-active-shooter-repo... (10 year average is a bit higher).

Of course the downside with the latter is that simply weapons checking at the school won't stop it from happening right before / after school, or otherwise outside of school.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#52

Post by ceejayoz »

cpitman wrote: post #47
ceejayoz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/12/17/mass-s... > GVA has reported 971 cases of school shootings across the United States in 2024, with many of them having no victims or injuries. The database has tracked 112 school shootings in which a victim was injured or killed. Somewhere between ~3/day and ~0.3/day, depending what you count. Close enough.

Looking at this database, they have a really loose definition of a "school shooting". I'm just going in order here, no picking and choosing. Here's the link if anyone wants to follow along: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/school-shootings 1. A teacher had a gun in their possession, there was no shooting: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/3099438 2. An adult robbery suspect was found by police on a high s…

That page has a CSV export; it's ~2000 rows.

They appear to have correctly filtered out the "Non-Shooting Incident" sort of results from it (which your picks appear to mostly be) to arrive at the ~900 numbers.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#53

Post by N2yhWNXQN3k9 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #18
yesco wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am happy to inform you that the United States also does not have school shootings on an "almost daily basis". Not trying to be pedantic here, but gross exaggerations misrepresent the issue.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/12/17/mass-s... > GVA has reported 971 cases of school shootings across the United States in 2024, with many of them having no victims or injuries. The database has tracked 112 school shootings in which a victim was injured or killed. Somewhere between ~3/day and ~0.3/day, depending what you count. Close enough.

Depends how you define school shooting as well. Click around on https://www.chds.us/sssc/data-map/ . There are numerous incidents like "Teacher killed himself in classroom after school hours" "Shots fired in the evening, no one injured".

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#54

Post by ceejayoz »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #29
ceejayoz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Examples in both directions abound. Guns aren't required: https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/25/us/indiana-school-shooting-te... https://www.npr.org/2022/11/15/1136617873/buffalo-clinic-gun... https://time.com/6249944/monterey-park-mass-shooting-brandon... https://nypost.com/2022/02/01/waffle-house-shooting-video-sh... https://abcnews.go.com/US/abc-news-exclusive-teacher-hugged-... Guns (even nearly 400 of them, carried by…

You're trying to disprove the political slogan, which is obviously rhetoric. "The only way to X is Y" is generally going to be false because absolutist statements in general are going to be false. The real question is, for example, does prohibiting school staff from having firearms make it better or worse? Which is pretty hard to measure when there is a federal law against it. But a point in favor of "better" is that…

> The real question is, for example, does prohibiting school staff from having firearms make it better or worse? Which is pretty hard to measure when there is a federal law against it.

Federal law forbids unauthorized individuals from possessing firearms at schools. All it requires is the state authorize it.

Result: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-teachers-guns-at-school/

> According to the Texas Association of School Boards, "school districts can grant written permission for anyone, including designated employees, to carry firearms on campus" under Texas Penal Code 46.03, but the law does not lay out standards for training. The only thing a school employee needs in order to carry a firearm on campus is a license to carry, which requires a background check and a proficiency demonstration. Otherwise, individual districts determine the amount and type of additional requirements, which can include active-shooter training courses and psychological evaluations.

It's entirely legal to arm teachers under Federal law. (I don't think it's a good idea; I've met enough teachers.)

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#55

Post by dmoy »

yesco wrote: post #14
razakel wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadians have guns. Mexicans have guns. Australians have guns. They don't have school shootings on an almost daily basis. The problem is definitely not the guns. It doesn't help, but it's not the root cause.

I am happy to inform you that the United States also does not have school shootings on an "almost daily basis". Not trying to be pedantic here, but gross exaggerations misrepresent the issue.

It really depends on the definition of "school shooting". If you mean the type that makes national headlines where someone shoots a bunch of random people, then no it's not daily

In 2023 it was three events: https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/2023-active-shooter-repo...

If by "school shooting" you include all the people shot in or right next to schools, then yea it's almost daily (or at least every couple days or so). That includes fights escalating to guns, targeted shootings of single people due to whatever revenge.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#56

Post by gruez »

giantg2 wrote: post #44
gruez wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>US's high crime problems boil down to poor socioeconomic factors. Poverty, desperation, lack of economic mobility and opportunity, draconian law enforcement, poor social services and safety net. Source? This doesn't pass the sniff test. First, US's poverty rate isn't the lowest, but is below many lower income countries that also have lower homicide rates. The figures for poverty rates take into account PPP, so it's…

Plenty of sources on the correlation of various socioeconomic factors with violence and gun violence. Pubmed is a good starting point. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35546249/

That study doesn't have any mention of controls in the abstract. Therefore it can't prove a casual link. For instance, it could be the case that rich people with the means flee more violent areas, and/or that less violent people are more successful in life, which allows them resources to escape violent areas, and that's responsible for the correlation, rather than "socioeconomic factors" making people more violent.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#57

Post by AnthonyMouse »

giantg2 wrote: post #50
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're trying to disprove the political slogan, which is obviously rhetoric. "The only way to X is Y" is generally going to be false because absolutist statements in general are going to be false. The real question is, for example, does prohibiting school staff from having firearms make it better or worse? Which is pretty hard to measure when there is a federal law against it. But a point in favor of "better" is that…

What federal law is that? I heard more than half of states allow it now.

> What federal law is that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1...

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#58

Post by ceejayoz »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #57
giantg2 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What federal law is that? I heard more than half of states allow it now.

> What federal law is that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1...

"unauthorized" is in the first sentence for a reason.

States can (and do) authorize teachers to carry guns.

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#59

Post by cpitman »

ceejayoz wrote: post #52
cpitman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at this database, they have a really loose definition of a "school shooting". I'm just going in order here, no picking and choosing. Here's the link if anyone wants to follow along: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/school-shootings 1. A teacher had a gun in their possession, there was no shooting: https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/3099438 2. An adult robbery suspect was found by police on a high s…

That page has a CSV export; it's ~2000 rows. They appear to have correctly filtered out the "Non-Shooting Incident" sort of results from it (which your picks appear to mostly be) to arrive at the ~900 numbers.

I've also been looking at the export, but I don't see any way to filter down to "Shooting incidents". Just sampling the first 10, 10% of 2000 is looking like way less.

Were you able to find a way to validate the 900 number?

Re: FTC orders 'gun detection' tech maker Evolv to stop overstating effectiveness

#60

Post by razakel »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #45
razakel wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadians have guns. Mexicans have guns. Australians have guns. They don't have school shootings on an almost daily basis. The problem is definitely not the guns. It doesn't help, but it's not the root cause.

> Mexicans have guns. Mexico has some of the most stringent gun laws in the world. They also have more than four times the murder rate of the US. So while it's technically true that Mexicans have guns, this is more along the lines of "people inclined to violate the law against murder have no qualms about violating the law against unlawful possession of a firearm" rather than that it's easy to lawfully acquire a firea…

Practically anyone can own a shotgun in the UK, which also has restrictive gun laws. There has only ever been one school shooting (and the guy responsible owned his weapons completely legally).

What I'm saying is that gun control won't solve the problem, but it will help.

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