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Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

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Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#51
post #26

Anecdotally, I gave Dvorak a try and became somewhat proficient, but ultimately reverted back to QWERTY for one reason: keyboard shortcuts! Control-C|V|Z are all transformed into either two-handed shortcuts or right-handed shortcuts. In either case, I can't copy/paste while selecting text with the mouse (since I'm right-handed). I now use Colemak ( https://colemak.com/ ) which doesn't have this issue and I'm quite ha…

Good point, but IMO mechanical programmable keyboard with hardware shortcuts are the way to go. That way you can remap to one-handed, or even one button, or whatever you like. You can even take it with you between machines. It's like a portable "human interface" that stays with you.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#52
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the best thing about Dvorak (and similar layouts) is that if you want to do proper touch typing, it is quite possibly easier to learn Dvorak than to learn how to touch type QWERTY. Touch typing QWERTY is a constant uphill battle of using your willpower to force yourself to type correctly, despite the rest of your brain claiming it isn't the optimal way to type on that layout. I don't know that your brain is…

This sounds very alluring but having to deal with setting up VIM in every environment or going to a new environment with VIM not set up sounds so painful. I imagine the native VIM bindings would be atrociously positioned in DVORAK

> I imagine the native VIM bindings would be atrociously positioned in DVORAK

Not really. Most vim keybindings follow mnemonics (like `di"`). Dvorak still has 'jk' adjacent to each other; and `h` to the left of `l`.

There are several keyboard shortcuts which are nicer with QWERTY left-hand only: (Ctrl Z, X, C, V, S, F, W, ... T?, A).

For two-hands-on-keyboard, these are less of an issue than for keyboard+mouse workflows.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#53
I had used a Dvorak layout for a few years and loved it. Ultimately, I switched back to Qwerty for a few fairly practical reasons:

1) Every video game I've ever played has had key bindings with Qwerty (or a controller) in mind. I would estimate that roughly 60%-ish of those games permit for some level of keyboard remapping. When remapping is possible, there will be bewildering exceptions for certain actions. When it's not possible, they are impossible to play.

Yes, I am aware you can switch between different layouts through the OS easily enough, but after I had gotten used to a letter being in a specific spot for Dvorak, and then being prompted to press it in a Qwerty layout, I found myself mis-typing extremely frequently for button prompts. It also became a chore to switch between them if I was in the middle of playing, then wanted type out a quick message in instant messenger.

2) Random bugs. I had noticed that for whatever reason, some programs just seemed to have some kind of issue with Dvorak layouts. I can't think of any specifics, it's been at least a decade since then, but it was something bizarre like: program recognizes that I was using a Dvorak layout except if I was using a keyboard shortcut.

3) It was weird that my cellphone was in a Qwerty layout but my computer wasn't. I seem to recall having a lot of issues trying to get Dvorak to work as the default layout.

4) I shared the computer with another family member. They complained that they had to learn the new layout. I convinced them it would improve their typing speed and they agreed. Eventually, they also started going to the library to do some research, which of course had a Qwerty layout. This caused an incredible amount of grief for them. Ultimately, this is the reason I switched back.

5) I seem to remember programming in general just being more uncomfortable in Dvorak. I think the punctuation I needed was in the upper left(?) which put a lot of extra strain on my left pinky.

I liked Dvorak quite a bit, but it just felt impractical. The world I live in just feels like it's setup for Qwerty, inefficient as that layout may be. I see it like if someone chose to become left-handed. You could do it, but if an much more popular method exists, and there is extra effort in going with the less popular one, for what amounts to the same outcome, why go through the struggle?

If things were to suddenly switch tomorrow, I'd gladly switch back, I just don't see much point in fighting for such a thing when we have a solution that is close enough.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#54

I use Dvorak. When typing on QWERTY, I feel like I'm playing a secretary in a 1950s movie trying to ham up the notion that I'm really typing something here, because it feels my fingers have to fly around everywhere in an exaggerated and ostentatious manner. If you have typing speed less than 50 WPM, you'll probably type faster by switching to Dvorak. If you type faster than that before switching, your typing speed wi…

> ...vi type movements...

Can attest vi movements can be learned on Dvorak. But have to admit it is not quite as nice, those movements were designed for qwerty.

Of course "j" and "k" are next to each other on Dvorak. "h" and "l" are also positioned at first and fourth fingers like qwerty... but on different rows and on different hand than "j/k". Which means Dvorak requires two-handed vi movements.

Maybe not a big deal, vi shortcuts mean moving all over the keyboard anyway. Just not quite as nice.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#55

I tried and considered switching to dvorak as my main keyboard layout. I didn't stay with it because of two things: 1. The fact I'd have to keep both in my muscle-memory due to swapping onto other people's machines 2. Vim keybindings

> Vim keybindings Dvorak's actually pretty good for vim keybindings. While 'hjkl' is positionally significant; Dvorak 'jk' are still adjacent and easy to reach in Dvorak, and 'h' is still to the left of 'l' on the same hand. Other keybindings are better remembered by the letter itself rather than by the position on the keyboard (e.g. "di'" or "gg"), so these aren't that much of an issue.

The issue is that w/ decades of muscle-memory, having vim keys change position is a no-go.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#56
post #46

I tried and considered switching to dvorak as my main keyboard layout. I didn't stay with it because of two things: 1. The fact I'd have to keep both in my muscle-memory due to swapping onto other people's machines 2. Vim keybindings

> due to swapping onto other people's machines I find it really easy to switch layouts though (either on linux with a `loadkeys dvorak`, or by quickly going to the menus).

Admittedly, my experiment was a while ago. It might be easier now.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#57
post #37
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably the best thing about Dvorak (and similar layouts) is that if you want to do proper touch typing, it is quite possibly easier to learn Dvorak than to learn how to touch type QWERTY. Touch typing QWERTY is a constant uphill battle of using your willpower to force yourself to type correctly, despite the rest of your brain claiming it isn't the optimal way to type on that layout. I don't know that your brain is…

> QWERTY users naturally wander around and have their hands leave the home row and I'm not entirely convinced it's actually wrong. I think you are learning it wrong. It's not hard at all to learn QWERTY with the proper training technique. I took touch typing in High School, back in the 1980's. Even back then I knew I was going to be doing a lot of work with computers so it made sense to take it. It turned out to be t…

"I think you are learning it wrong."

Well, of course I did. I used a keyboard for many years before my formal middle school typing class and by then it was too late. My brain already knew better and typing exercises did no good because I already knew how to use the keyboard without looking.

I imagine this is the dominant case.

If you want to fix it, I recommend simply learning a sensible layout for touch typing.

You also would not have needed such a class if the keyboard was laid out in Dvorak for everybody. You wouldn't need formal training that largely only works if it is drilled into you before natural exposure to a keyboard, because your hands would just do the right thing automatically. The idea of needing a typing class would become entirely absurd; there would be no technique to teach anyone that they wouldn't simply pick up.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#58
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vim is perfectly usable with Dvorak.

Could you elaborate? My experience was that vim keybindings are tied to characters, not key codes (position). Insert is 'i', not the key at position of 'i' in QUERTY. Maybe I was doing it wrong, but Vim, for me, is all about the interface and muscle memory. Having keys move position due to the different keyboard layout was a deal-breaker.

e.g. I recall that blogpost titled "ZZ vs zz". I use both of these on both QWERTY and Dvorak frequently enough; although tbh I had to actually try typing 'zz' to recall what it did.

My suspicion is that when I picked up using Dvorak with Vim, whatever association or motor-memory goes on gets some indirection added, so that 'letter and position' are not quite so tightly coupled.

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#59
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a colemak user, I have the same flow. I used to have a keyboard that had blank keycaps, but that isn't kind to the rest of the family that uses the computer. :D Numbers, amusingly, can mess me up.

I have literally just learnt about colemak from these comments. I suffer from RSI and have tried Dvorak in the past, but as a qwerty touch typist found it too different. How long did it take you to learn colemak? I guess if you still use it you find it better than qwerty?

Not OP but: I’ve been using Colemak for 10+ years at this point.. I switched in the middle of a semester while getting my CS degree to A) learn to actually touch type and B) maybe help prevent RSI issues cause I knew I was gonna be programming for a while (and I have trash typing posture).

It’s a struggle for maybe a month or two completely upending your muscle memory.. but retaining the locations of AZXCV from QWERTY did help a lot with transitioning. The hardest part for me was how S is moved one character over to where D is (took a while before I stopped making S related mistake..).

I think I practiced typing every day deliberately for a few months until I didn’t feel like I had to consciously think about it anymore and was up to ~80WPM again. No regrets here.. and it’s always amusing watch people use my computer at first

Re: Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

#60
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a colemak user, I have the same flow. I used to have a keyboard that had blank keycaps, but that isn't kind to the rest of the family that uses the computer. :D Numbers, amusingly, can mess me up.

I have literally just learnt about colemak from these comments. I suffer from RSI and have tried Dvorak in the past, but as a qwerty touch typist found it too different. How long did it take you to learn colemak? I guess if you still use it you find it better than qwerty?

I learned Colemak in a long weekend "cold turkey". I wasn't quite as fast after that weekend, but I felt so much better and more comfortable after just the weekend. (I was in grad school and in pain and knew I was probably weeks or months from an RSI surgery if I didn't change something.)

The lesson plan I was using followed home row order and I knew I was "home" in Colemak in the first lessons because even in the first four "main finger" home row keys you start by typing entire, real English words, some of which can be quite long such as Tennessee. (That was always a problem for me in grade school QWERTY lessons was how much home row exercises were garbage and nonsense words.) I feel like that also added to the feeling that learning Colemak was fast and just took then one dedicated long weekend.

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