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Discriminatory attitudes against the unvaccinated during a global pandemic

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Re: Discriminatory attitudes against the unvaccinated during a global pandemic

#51

Post by TrevorJ »

nwiswell wrote: post #21
DoreenMichele wrote: post #9

When I was growing up, they counted anyone who got vaccinated against something as a "success." So if 80 percent got vaccinated for X, they bragged about that. These days, we count anyone who didn't get vaccinated as a failure and bellyache about that 20 percent that "won't cooperate" and malign them as problem children who don't have a good reason for their choices. It's a dramatic change in attitude and it's very s…

Basically every nation already uses force to deter certain forms of socially problematic behavior. If you habitually litter, for example, you'll receive a fine. If you don't pay that fine, you're going to end up with a bench warrant. There is an implicit threat of force. Same for graffiti, smoking in public places, etc. Vaccine uptake is not actually compulsory under threat of force, and in that sense I have trouble…

"Do this or you will be unemployable" doesn't sound like force to you?

Re: Discriminatory attitudes against the unvaccinated during a global pandemic

#52

Post by jfengel »

eastbound wrote: post #11
chomp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my children were born, my father and his mother refused to get the TDAP. I refused them access to my house to see my newborn before they got vaccinated. They eventually relented and got the vaccination. There's a friend of a friend that I know that is anti-vax re: measles, that I refuse to let my children around. I have no interest or time to risk our health (yes, even for 0.01%) for people who refuse do basic m…

There is a large difference between old vaccines and the Covid one in terms of trust.

A fact that has essentially nothing to do with the safety or efficacy of the COVID vaccine. There has been a deliberate ideologically-driven campaign to undermine that trust.

Ask a COVID anti-vaxxer to explain their position, and it will almost immediately include at least one outright falsehood. Not a "difference of opinion" or "interpretation" or "risk tolerance", but just an outright lie. And correcting that will not result in any reconsideration of their stance.

Most people don't really understand any of the vaccines they're taking, but they put their trust in a medical system that has largely justified that trust. Some people have suddenly decided to disagree with the entire scientific and medical establishment, seeking out specific individuals for their ideological agreement.

There is a large difference in trust, but it's not founded in science. It's founded in a bias, and that's dangerous.

Re: Discriminatory attitudes against the unvaccinated during a global pandemic

#53

Post by autokad »

falcolas wrote: post #28
bmelton wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was mostly an online phenomenon wherein medical professionals were entertaining the idea of refusing medical care to the unvaccinated, right up until I heard it repeated by a friend of mine who is a nurse admin.

I kinda get it: they're intentionally and knowingly hurting others (those with legitimate medical reasons they can't get the vaccine). I saw some folks who did not get vaccines (I know this because they called those of us who got vaccines "sheep" and other derogatory terms) conspicuously cough near others.

> "they're intentionally and knowingly hurting others" this is an unproven claim, one that was never actually tested. and quite honestly, its very clear the 'vaccine' does not prevent spread, nor even you getting it.

"but it lowers the chances of death!"

Ok... so why are you mandating others getting it because 'hurting others'.

Re: Discriminatory attitudes against the unvaccinated during a global pandemic

#54

Post by jeffbee »

mike_hearn wrote: post #40
hackerlight wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a little mob came together to denounce the idea and say that he absolutely should never be allowed in public again. Emphasis on "little", I suppose? This sounds like a strawman. I don't think many would have argued that someone with a legitimate medical reason to not get vaccinated should be excluded from anything.

Very few argued that, but it's what happened. Recall that COVID unvaccinated non-citizens still may not enter the USA for any reason.

False. Children, people traveling for emergencies, and anyone medically unable to take the vaccine may travel to the U.S. without it.

Re: Discriminatory attitudes against the unvaccinated during a global pandemic

#55

Post by poizan42 »

mike_hearn wrote: post #40
hackerlight wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a little mob came together to denounce the idea and say that he absolutely should never be allowed in public again. Emphasis on "little", I suppose? This sounds like a strawman. I don't think many would have argued that someone with a legitimate medical reason to not get vaccinated should be excluded from anything.

Very few argued that, but it's what happened. Recall that COVID unvaccinated non-citizens still may not enter the USA for any reason.

One of the exceptions from the vaccine requirement listed on https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/proof-of... is: "Persons with documented medical contraindications to receiving a COVID-19 vaccine"

Re: Discriminatory attitudes against the unvaccinated during a global pandemic

#56

Post by adamiscool8 »

epgui wrote: post #10
barbariangrunge wrote: post #5

I have a friend who is allergic to many vaccines. A bad reaction as a kid led to him needing years of rehab. He's also high risk for Covid. He's pro-vaccine in general I guess I should add, but his doctor told him to not get the covid shots because the risk was too high Whenever I mention that it's cruel to exclude people like him from society, due to vaccine requirements, when people like him are presumably what all…

I'm deadly allergic to eggs, and the only flu vaccine easily available to me is made with eggs, so I don't take it. There are many other medically valid reasons to not take a vaccine. There are even some (a very small number) of people whose religious convictions are a valid reason to get an exemption. The issue is that the overwhelming majority (>99%) of people who choose not to vaccinate, do so for bad reasons, whi…

In my age+health cohort, the known and documented risks of the vaccines outweigh the known risks of COVID-19, but you assume “bad reasons” because it’s not a religious objection or medical contraindication. What makes your risk calculus any more valid than mine?

I would go so far as to say it’s anti-science to lump 99% of the vaccine rejectors as “uninformed”. I’d venture the average mechanistic knowledge of these products is higher than in the rejectors than in the vaccinated set.

Re: Discriminatory attitudes against the unvaccinated during a global pandemic

#57

Post by TrevorJ »

falcolas wrote: post #47
TrevorJ wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two doctors told me the vaccine may not be safe for someone with my rare condition (There's a list of medications and interventions as long as my arm that I can't take because they could literally kill me). In spite of this, neither doctor was initially willing to put their opinion on paper so I could keep my job because of the immense pressure on them to get everyone vaccinated. Thank God, the specialist I saw came…

> Being forced to go into my personal medical history to justify my choices was a weird experience. Try having a non-visible disability. It's a pretty common thing, actually. It even kinda falls in the same category - one of the workplace duties is to be vaccinated, and you have extenuating circumstances which require an affordance since you can't meet that duty. School teachers, for a very long time, were required t…

Yeah, I definitely realize many people have had to deal with this sort of thing longer than I have. It was certainly eye-opening.

Re: Discriminatory attitudes against the unvaccinated during a global pandemic

#58

Post by luckylion »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #41
luckylion wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The correct way is to explain to them the reasons that you feel it's good for them, or for those around them, and then let them make the decision. The problem is, at least for many societies, that we don't operate on "you get to choose, but you have to live with the consequences". If you choose not to get vaccinated because you want to avoid becoming a walking 5g transmitter programmed by Bill Gates, and you get si…

You're not understanding my point. Shouting people down, restricting their movements, trying to put them out of a job etc. is abusive behaviour. It works if the force is sufficient enough. That doesn't make it right.

Sure, and I wasn't a fan of the approaches they used, but I do understand them.

The alternative is either to accept their willful ignorance that will have life-threatening impact on third parties that weren't willfully ignorant, or to cut them off from societal institutions for anything that follows from their decisions.

At least in Germany, that was the debate, and the folks who didn't want to get vaccinated didn't favor living with the consequences either. It's pretty much why we have mandatory retirement programs, because we don't trust the population at large to make smart decisions and we don't want them to rely on society after the consequences of their decisions manifest.

Re: Discriminatory attitudes against the unvaccinated during a global pandemic

#59

Post by jltsiren »

mike_hearn wrote: post #40
hackerlight wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a little mob came together to denounce the idea and say that he absolutely should never be allowed in public again. Emphasis on "little", I suppose? This sounds like a strawman. I don't think many would have argued that someone with a legitimate medical reason to not get vaccinated should be excluded from anything.

Very few argued that, but it's what happened. Recall that COVID unvaccinated non-citizens still may not enter the USA for any reason.

Have you tried to enter the US as a non-citizen recently? You have to complete an attestation form, with a long list of exceptions from the vaccination requirement. The things that get reported in the news are simplified, while the reality is complicated and messy.
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