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Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#51

Post by nradov »

Jimmc414 wrote: post #34
xqcgrek2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how science works in the post-WW2 era. Most prominent scientists (in any field) seldom do science when they attain their stature -- they manage people (students and postdocs), and many become politicians for their institution or lab to attain more funding.

I'm curious, what effect do you see WW2 having on science itself? That is not intended to be argumentative, I'd like to hear your opinion.

By that point most of the low-hanging scientific "fruit" had already been picked. Due to increasing complexity and the high workload of running experiments, solo scientists could no longer make much progress. So they had to act as administrators and project managers, leading larger teams of assistants and graduate students.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#52

Post by johncena33 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #5
Jimmc414 wrote: post #3

[But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.] The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions. It is discouraging that scientists can make sta…

Scientists do not have the luxury of pretending politics and bad actors don’t exist.

The reality is not so rosy. Many virologists know that if lab leak is true their careers will be over. So I am very skeptical of how much obfuscations and disinformation spread by virologists is for the good of humanity and how much of it is just to protect their self interest.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#54

Post by jeremyjh »

helloworld wrote: post #37
Mandatum wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collins hasn't done anything except management and policy for the last 30 years. The closest he's gotten to science is writing books I'd put in the autobiography or philosophy section and tag it "theistic evolution".

At least as of 2011: "Collins remains actively involved in research, studying the molecular genetics of diseases including cancer and adult-onset diabetes. His group also is developing animal models of genetic disorders to test potential therapeutic approaches." [0] [0] Kresge N, Simoni RD, Hill RL. The Molecular Genetics of Cystic Fibrosis: The Work of Francis Collins. J Biol Chem. 2011 Aug 12;286(32):e8–9. doi: 10.…

Yes, that is the management part of his job. He runs a research group and probably has to spend much of his time looking for funding for that group while lightly supervising the actual science it is doing.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#55

Post by systemvoltage »

albinofrenchy wrote: post #47
systemvoltage wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The only way to disprove lab leak theory is for the CCP to disclose the WIV databases and records of what they were studying. Otherwise, just because it was found in some animal doesn’t quite disprove it. WIV was actively collecting virus samples from mammals for research funded by the US tax payer money through Eco Health Alliance.

If you are inclined to think the CCP knows / is covering up a lab leak; you are also inclined to think that they'd release fake disclosure data to cover it up.

I prefer an independent third party audit.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#56

Post by xqcgrek2 »

Jimmc414 wrote: post #13
ceejayoz wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scientists do not have the luxury of pretending politics and bad actors don’t exist.

Politics and bad actors have always existed. Scientists should counter them with facts and honesty not censorship.

That's not how the world or mathematics (game theory) works

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#57

Post by xqcgrek2 »

awb wrote: post #35

Some additional perspectives: Snopes is highly skeptical: https://www.snopes.com/news/2021/07/16/lab-leak-evidence/ An r/science essay from a PhD in virology is highly skeptical: https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/gk6y95/covid19_did... While Root Claim estimates an 83% chance of a lab leak: https://www.rootclaim.com/analysis/What-is-the-source-of-COV...

Snopes and Reddit are not credible.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#58

Post by RikNieu »

> “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”.

You know what else causes unnecessary harm to science, public trust and health policy? Repeated and condescending lies and gas-lighting from those in charge.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#59

Post by jeremyjh »

DarknessFalls wrote: post #33

Can someone explain why the furin cleavage site is unusual from a natural evolutionary view?

If a feature would make the virus very unsuccessful in bats, then how did it propagate? There had to be another cross-over species or something but no one has any data to suggest what that is. China has apparently made it impossible to do the work of piecing that together, so the lab leak hypothesis may never be put to bed. Maybe the party leadership believes a lab leak is likely even if they have no specific knowledge of it.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#60

Post by Jimmc414 »

xqcgrek2 wrote: post #56
Jimmc414 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politics and bad actors have always existed. Scientists should counter them with facts and honesty not censorship.

That's not how the world or mathematics (game theory) works

Can you think of a scenario where science has ever benefited from censorship? Correct me if I am wrong, but respectfully that is the argument you are making, right?
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