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Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

lse.ac.uk

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Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#51

Post by wincy »

systemvoltage wrote: post #43
coolandsmartrr wrote: post #32

David Foster Wallace once wrote an essay called "Consider the Lobster." He argued for the merciful eating of lobsters; rather than boil them alive, make their death instantaneous. How will the legal recognition change their treatment?

It is actually insane that there is so much violence in nature. Every minute, there are millions of living things dying – many with unimaginable pain. The evolutionary engine is absolutely merciless. If I want to be terrified, I think what if we, instead of at the top of the food chain, were just second. It terrifies me to no end.

I get more freaked out about thinking of falling into the atmosphere of Jupiter, just falling and falling and falling, eventually getting crushed. Or maybe a giant tentacle grabbing me, being pulled into some unthinking Cyclopean maw lurking just under the big red spot...

The entire rest of the universe is even more terrifying if only because it's so much more inhospitable to life.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#52

Post by galaxyLogic »

andrekandre wrote: post #9

so, if they are sentient, they can still be eaten legally... then what is the red-line for allowing or not (an animal) to be eaten? sapience?

I think the question is more who can kill an animal?

Humans are animals too. But ordinarily one human is not allowed to kill another, except the state of course in countries with death penalty.

So if humans can kill humans it makes sense that humans can also kill (other) animals. But you can not kill someone else's animal because it is not your property.

Now if it is ok to kill somebody I don't see why it would be any bigger sin to eat their dead body, is it?

(I'm not saying it is ok to kill but our society seems to allow it in many cases)

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#53

Post by Sebb767 »

adriand wrote: post #25
chrisweekly wrote: post #11

Crabs and lobsters are basically bugs, whereas an octopus is a creative, playful, intelligent creature with amazing capabilities. It seems strange to group them together.

I assume that Dr Jonathan Birch, Associate Professor at LSE’s Centre for Philosophy of Natural and Social Science, and his team of scientists didn’t encounter this insightful perspective when they reviewed “over 300 scientific studies” in order to arrive at their conclusions… In seriousness though, this comment is a prime example of speciesism. Even if it were true that these crustaceans were “basically bugs” how doe…

> The fact this is somehow just dawning on modern society is a sad indictment of our blinkered and callous disregard for other species

Well, lobsters eat fish and fish, as any child could explain to you, can experience distress and probably also pain. As far as animals go, both humans and lobsters are quite actually quite nice - there are species out there that poison their prey and eat it alive [0]. So this is not really a "disregard for other species", no more than it's disregard of a fox to eat a deer. Now, of course, by now we could be better than this, I fully agree with you here - but the fact that other species experience pain and distress when ending up as food was basically an universal truth until some very recent human inventions.

[0] I know some humans do that, too, but that's far from the general case.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#54

Post by BeeBoBub »

adriand wrote: post #29
monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

By this logic, humans should be given only half the consideration we give to orcas, which according to the resource you posted, have twice the neurons we do.

That’s not really the argument monkeybutton is making, the point is lobsters’ neural complexity is similar to ants, and orcas are comparable to humans.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#55

Post by stavros »

peanut_worm wrote: post #49
stavros wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where are cuttlefish?

> The review drew on over 300 existing scientific studies to evaluate evidence of sentience in cephalopods (including octopuses, squid and cuttlefish) Cuttlefish very closely related to Octopi, I am sure they’d get lumped in with the other cephalopods wherever the law is concerned.

Ah okay, the initial sentence is illustratory, rather than exhaustive, then. Makes sense, thanks!

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#56

Post by peanut_worm »

systemvoltage wrote: post #43
coolandsmartrr wrote: post #32

David Foster Wallace once wrote an essay called "Consider the Lobster." He argued for the merciful eating of lobsters; rather than boil them alive, make their death instantaneous. How will the legal recognition change their treatment?

It is actually insane that there is so much violence in nature. Every minute, there are millions of living things dying – many with unimaginable pain. The evolutionary engine is absolutely merciless. If I want to be terrified, I think what if we, instead of at the top of the food chain, were just second. It terrifies me to no end.

Boiling to death is pretty cruel even for nature. Getting eaten alive honesty doesn’t even sound as bad.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#57

Post by boomboomsubban »

petre wrote: post #36

Does this mean that Gordon Ramsey doesn't get to throw live lobster into a boiling pot if water anymore?

I think this means the people that determine how animals should be treated now have the ability to rule lobsters can't be boiled alive.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#60

Post by TehCorwiz »

Natsu wrote: post #39
moeris wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The bar for sentience is quite low. It only means that one is capable of feeling sensations. (For example, Wikipedia gives the definition, "Sentience is the capacity to experience feelings and sensations.")

Are fetuses not sentient for most of their growth, then?

By the above definition even amoeba and flatworms are sentient.
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