Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 72 posts

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#51

Post by shepardrtc »

amadeuspagel wrote: post #42
shepardrtc wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a guarantee that someone has been teaching the same thing for years can continue teaching the same thing when political winds shift. It's there so that people such as yourself can't replace them with those whose views they prefer. You classify professors as if they are all the same, which means you're creating a straw man to weaken the position as whole without actually providing any sort of specific point to ar…

> It's a guarantee that someone has been teaching the same thing for years can continue teaching the same thing when political winds shift. Yeah. Seems valuable. A privilege, almost. > It's there so that people such as yourself can't replace them with those whose views they prefer. Gratuitous personal attack. > You classify professors as if they are all the same, which means you're creating a straw man to weaken the…

> How else? So you admit that they are privileged in one sense, in the sense of having tenure, of not having to fear getting fired for speech, and you're asking me how else they are privilged?

You're manipulating what I said. The word 'else' is in reference to what other ways do YOU think they are privileged. And you still haven't answered the questions.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#52

Post by ghaff »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #6

This just means they got rid of the concept of tenure. Albeit, I have heard it argued that tenure is not as relevant in the modern era of social media and twitter mobs, because academia is turning into a monoculture of thought through self-censorship. It is understandable that the more diverse taxpaying public would start to question the purpose of protecting the views of a privileged elite class when they themselves…

Tenure is arguably more relevant than ever to the degree that you believe a tenured professor has some special right as an employee to spout off controversially on Twitter or a blog without professional repercussions. I have some trouble making that argument though.

Certainly it's not true of professionals in general. While I get the idea behind tenure, what is the argument that a tenured CS professor has a particular right to express controversial political opinions that a senior engineer at a large technology company does not?

(Though there are other arguments such as said professor maybe should be able to work on some idea other people think is a dead end while it's probably reasonable that the engineer's manager can just tell them work on it on your own time if you want.)

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#53

Post by ghaff »

boringg wrote: post #40
jbrwn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am inclined to agree with you but I am also somewhat conflicted due to recent events at my alma mater. It was just revealed that a tenured CS professor is the author of a hate filled blog that disparages women, lgbtq+, and minorities [1]. Ostensibly this guy is "protected" due to his tenure status. I am not sure this is really good for anyone. [1] http://www.montanakaimin.com/news/computer-science-professor...

Sample size of one shouldn't change your perspective on a whole class of people. There are bad actors in every group - and, while it is shameful his deeds, you can't castigate a whole class of people.

I'm also not sure extreme cases form a good argument anyway. Tenure isn't a blanket "Get out of jail free" card no matter what the behavior or the offense.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#54

Post by geodel »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #20

I see a number of comments below hailing this as a good thing, one that will benefit students. These folks look at Universities as just another company and think this is normal. It is not. It is a terrible mistake and the GA system (and its students, and society) will be worse off for it. The notion of tenure wasn't developed to protect dead wood. It came about because historically it was often difficult to distingui…

I see little differently here.

With rare exceptions University professor hardly criticize things that make university money.

General employees criticizing employer are seen as hypocrite when they seem just fine getting their share of money earned by employer's bad behavior.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#55

Post by amadeuspagel »

shepardrtc wrote: post #51
amadeuspagel wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a guarantee that someone has been teaching the same thing for years can continue teaching the same thing when political winds shift. Yeah. Seems valuable. A privilege, almost. > It's there so that people such as yourself can't replace them with those whose views they prefer. Gratuitous personal attack. > You classify professors as if they are all the same, which means you're creating a straw man to weaken the…

> How else? So you admit that they are privileged in one sense, in the sense of having tenure, of not having to fear getting fired for speech, and you're asking me how else they are privilged? You're manipulating what I said. The word 'else' is in reference to what other ways do YOU think they are privileged. And you still haven't answered the questions.

> You're manipulating what I said. The word 'else' is in reference to what other ways do YOU think they are privileged.

OK. So you do not admit that tenure is a privilege?

> And you still haven't answered the questions.

You have some nerve. You write a comment filled with snark and personal attacks that doesn't answer any of my questions, and now you demand that I answer your questions?

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#56

Post by kxyvr »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #20

I see a number of comments below hailing this as a good thing, one that will benefit students. These folks look at Universities as just another company and think this is normal. It is not. It is a terrible mistake and the GA system (and its students, and society) will be worse off for it. The notion of tenure wasn't developed to protect dead wood. It came about because historically it was often difficult to distingui…

Piggybacking the comment about Georgia becoming less attractive and competitive for good faculty, in 2015 Wisconsin significantly weakened the tenure system as well. I was curious about the affect of that decision and found this recently published paper:

https://peer.asee.org/impacts-of-governmental-policy-actions...

As a note, Wisconsin simultaneously weakened tenure and cut the university budget, which makes it difficult to distinguish the affect of each change. Nevertheless, the net result was fewer faculty and increased class size. Personally, I agree with your sentiment. This makes Georgia far less attractive for good faculty and those with options will go elsewhere.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#57

Post by matthewdgreen »

jbrwn wrote: post #38
matthewdgreen wrote: post #20

I see a number of comments below hailing this as a good thing, one that will benefit students. These folks look at Universities as just another company and think this is normal. It is not. It is a terrible mistake and the GA system (and its students, and society) will be worse off for it. The notion of tenure wasn't developed to protect dead wood. It came about because historically it was often difficult to distingui…

I am inclined to agree with you but I am also somewhat conflicted due to recent events at my alma mater. It was just revealed that a tenured CS professor is the author of a hate filled blog that disparages women, lgbtq+, and minorities [1]. Ostensibly this guy is "protected" due to his tenure status. I am not sure this is really good for anyone. [1] http://www.montanakaimin.com/news/computer-science-professor...

Sometimes the cost of open and unrestricted speech is that people will use it to say ugly things. This is another part of the tradeoff and I think it's still a good one.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#58

Post by ethbr0 »

JasonFruit wrote: post #45
jbrwn wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am inclined to agree with you but I am also somewhat conflicted due to recent events at my alma mater. It was just revealed that a tenured CS professor is the author of a hate filled blog that disparages women, lgbtq+, and minorities [1]. Ostensibly this guy is "protected" due to his tenure status. I am not sure this is really good for anyone. [1] http://www.montanakaimin.com/news/computer-science-professor...

I think that politically correct ideas about one of those groups are both illogical and harmful to society. Some might find my views repugnant and wrongly describe them as "hate-filled". Does that mean I shouldn't be able to hold a job, or that to do so I should have to hide my opinions and express them only surreptitiously? If not, your argument against tenure doesn't hold. If so, I'd love to hear more about your re…

It's a fair point. One of the biggest pros in favor of unpopular freedom of speech is preventing revolution via the airing and discussion of suppressed views.

In a college environment is probably the most socially safe (i.e. distinct from propagandizing) and productive (i.e. more likely to be intellectually examined) environments for them.

So if they exist anywhere, and I subscribe to the idea that unpopular things need to be speakable somewhere, then college is a good place.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#59

Post by IndPhysiker »

I'm going a different way here since the important metric is that out of 5800 tenured faculy, only 1500 professors signed their petition (article did not specify tenured status of those who signed). As an academic, I have to say this is largely about preparing a way for new profs to reach tenure. With most departments having a set headcount, it has always been the case with aging profs to slow down their efforts and ride the train to emeritus status. That makes for frusterating roadblocks to one's career. In the sciences, these are becoming more far between as ambitious profs don't slow down as there is still ground to achieve more personally through accolades, industry and professional society awards, etc. Most of the aged profs I've worked with in the past 5 years are still cranking out PhD students and bringing in funding.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#60

Post by Glyptodon »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #20

I see a number of comments below hailing this as a good thing, one that will benefit students. These folks look at Universities as just another company and think this is normal. It is not. It is a terrible mistake and the GA system (and its students, and society) will be worse off for it. The notion of tenure wasn't developed to protect dead wood. It came about because historically it was often difficult to distingui…

The other shoe is tenured faculty get their abusive research transgressions smoothed over and covered up by their institutions because firing is too much trouble.

Improperly consent human research subjects? Abuse children? Abuse students? Hire an unqualified fitness instructor FWB to oversee research data? Have to return a multimillion grant?

Just give said students free tuition and go back to making performative "woke" press releases about the abuser like it never happened.

Of course in states like Georgia they probably don't really care about that kind of thing either, so much as weeding out "liberals" or something.

Post reply on HN