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Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

nytimes.com

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Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#41

Post by roflc0ptic »

causi wrote: post #31

The move is being criticized by many professors, politicians and advocates for academic freedom as a threat to tenure, which is intended to protect faculty from dismissal without just cause, allowing them to develop thoughts or ideas that may be unpopular. Reap what you sow. Universities have spent twenty years crushing unpopular opinions with free speech zones and hate-mob controlled speaking appointments. They've a…

Im not sure this is a good take - most of the things you’re describing are basically an increase of administrative power; so too is letting the admin fire tenured professors. The story here is really one of metastasis of university administration

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#42

Post by amadeuspagel »

shepardrtc wrote: post #37
amadeuspagel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Professors most certainly are not a "privileged elite class." What is tenure if not a privilege? And if it isn't then what's the problem here? If tenure isn't something valuable then why are we discussing a story about it being taken away? EDIT: Just lol at the downvotes and the comments here. Lots of snark, personal attacks, but no one actually able to explain how tenure is not a privilege.

It's a guarantee that someone has been teaching the same thing for years can continue teaching the same thing when political winds shift. It's there so that people such as yourself can't replace them with those whose views they prefer. You classify professors as if they are all the same, which means you're creating a straw man to weaken the position as whole without actually providing any sort of specific point to ar…

> It's a guarantee that someone has been teaching the same thing for years can continue teaching the same thing when political winds shift.

Yeah. Seems valuable. A privilege, almost.

> It's there so that people such as yourself can't replace them with those whose views they prefer.

Gratuitous personal attack.

> You classify professors as if they are all the same, which means you're creating a straw man to weaken the position as whole without actually providing any sort of specific point to argue about.

What?

> How else would you consider professors to be privileged?

How else? So you admit that they are privileged in one sense, in the sense of having tenure, of not having to fear getting fired for speech, and you're asking me how else they are privilged?

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#44

Post by amadeuspagel »

badRNG wrote: post #32
amadeuspagel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Professors most certainly are not a "privileged elite class." What is tenure if not a privilege? And if it isn't then what's the problem here? If tenure isn't something valuable then why are we discussing a story about it being taken away? EDIT: Just lol at the downvotes and the comments here. Lots of snark, personal attacks, but no one actually able to explain how tenure is not a privilege.

Ah yes, the "privileged elite class" consisting of underpaid professors, and the oppressed have finally risen up to turn the power to control speech back over to administrators where that power rightly belongs.

> Ah yes, the "privileged elite class" consisting of underpaid professors, and the oppressed have finally risen up to turn the power to control speech back over to administrators where that power rightly belongs.

Pointless snark that adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#45

Post by JasonFruit »

jbrwn wrote: post #38
matthewdgreen wrote: post #20

I see a number of comments below hailing this as a good thing, one that will benefit students. These folks look at Universities as just another company and think this is normal. It is not. It is a terrible mistake and the GA system (and its students, and society) will be worse off for it. The notion of tenure wasn't developed to protect dead wood. It came about because historically it was often difficult to distingui…

I am inclined to agree with you but I am also somewhat conflicted due to recent events at my alma mater. It was just revealed that a tenured CS professor is the author of a hate filled blog that disparages women, lgbtq+, and minorities [1]. Ostensibly this guy is "protected" due to his tenure status. I am not sure this is really good for anyone. [1] http://www.montanakaimin.com/news/computer-science-professor...

I think that politically correct ideas about one of those groups are both illogical and harmful to society. Some might find my views repugnant and wrongly describe them as "hate-filled". Does that mean I shouldn't be able to hold a job, or that to do so I should have to hide my opinions and express them only surreptitiously? If not, your argument against tenure doesn't hold. If so, I'd love to hear more about your reasoning.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#46

Post by justin66 »

jbrwn wrote: post #38
matthewdgreen wrote: post #20

I see a number of comments below hailing this as a good thing, one that will benefit students. These folks look at Universities as just another company and think this is normal. It is not. It is a terrible mistake and the GA system (and its students, and society) will be worse off for it. The notion of tenure wasn't developed to protect dead wood. It came about because historically it was often difficult to distingui…

I am inclined to agree with you but I am also somewhat conflicted due to recent events at my alma mater. It was just revealed that a tenured CS professor is the author of a hate filled blog that disparages women, lgbtq+, and minorities [1]. Ostensibly this guy is "protected" due to his tenure status. I am not sure this is really good for anyone. [1] http://www.montanakaimin.com/news/computer-science-professor...

A tenured faculty member can still be fired for cause. I wouldn't assume that guy's job is safe.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#47

Post by akomtu »

jaywalk wrote: post #9
mjburgess wrote: post #4

> Last month, the board published a draft policy that included a clause stating that a tenured professor could be removed for reasons “other than for cause,” which generated concern leading up to the approval of its final policy. > While that language is no longer in the approved policy, The controversial element was removed and the policy is now: you can be fired if you fail two annual reviews, make no progress agai…

That last sentence seems like the key. Tenured professors basically have not been held accountable, and they don't want to start being held accountable now.

Accountable to whom? To unelected bureocrats in administration?

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#48

Post by colinmhayes »

seibelj wrote: post #16
mchusma wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think tenure is the main cause of this, but I don't believe that the university system is in very good shape. It appears quite broken (massively increased costs and decreasing evidence of efficacy). About 40+ years ago it was unquestionable that going to a university was the right choice for the vast majority. Now, it is far from clear.

Before the internet you needed a fully stocked library with excellent organization and archive retrieval, top quality professors who could (because of technology) teach at-most an auditorium full of people, and the ability to meet in person with other people knowledgable of the subject which previously required a centralized meeting place (the university). All of this is now provided with superior quality by the inte…

> Now the only advantage of a university is signaling where you got accepted, networking with similar people for future jobs, becoming socialized by a culture of university-types, and showing you have the discipline to jump through 4 years of fairly arbitrary hoops. There is value to this, but is it worth $200k+?

Yes this is absolutely worth 200k if you do it at the right school. Getting the signals and network is the only way to get a white collar job.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#49

Post by causi »

roflc0ptic wrote: post #41
causi wrote: post #31

The move is being criticized by many professors, politicians and advocates for academic freedom as a threat to tenure, which is intended to protect faculty from dismissal without just cause, allowing them to develop thoughts or ideas that may be unpopular. Reap what you sow. Universities have spent twenty years crushing unpopular opinions with free speech zones and hate-mob controlled speaking appointments. They've a…

Im not sure this is a good take - most of the things you’re describing are basically an increase of administrative power; so too is letting the admin fire tenured professors. The story here is really one of metastasis of university administration

The story here is really one of metastasis of university administration

Indeed it is, I agree. My point is professors have been happy to let administrators stomp all over the rights of students but suddenly diversity of thought and protecting dissident opinions is important now that it's the professors in the crosshairs. Don't get me wrong; this is a horrible development. It just comes with a tinge of poetic justice.

Re: Georgia’s University System Takes On Tenure

#50

Post by roflc0ptic »

causi wrote: post #49
roflc0ptic wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im not sure this is a good take - most of the things you’re describing are basically an increase of administrative power; so too is letting the admin fire tenured professors. The story here is really one of metastasis of university administration

The story here is really one of metastasis of university administration Indeed it is, I agree. My point is professors have been happy to let administrators stomp all over the rights of students but suddenly diversity of thought and protecting dissident opinions is important now that it's the professors in the crosshairs. Don't get me wrong; this is a horrible development. It just comes with a tinge of poetic justice.

Ah, fair, think I misunderstood ya
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