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For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

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Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#51
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your reasoning on why you expect that people will have to take a pay cut for working remotely. Would have thought it would be the opposite. Office space, hardware and energy cost a bit.

Ah, that's easy. The negotiating power of a company, which is practically a group of people, is much higher than that of employees, which are just 1 person. A big company loses what? 0.00001% of its revenue if it doesn't hire the right person for a specific position? An employee loses 100% of their revenue if they don't get hired or get fired. So companies can pretty much do what they want (up to a point where they c…

This is mistaken. Companies need good employees, and particularly skilled developers.

If you're a skilled developer, I urge you to exercise your negotiation power. You have much more than you think.

The problem is, most people aren't willing to walk from job offers. Walk. There are more.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#52

I found plenty of remote opportunities for several years prior to the pandemic just by sticking to my guns, passing and passing and passing on all non-remote opportunities.

Ditto - I've been 100% remote/WFH for 20 years now...

It just gets easier and easier. Especially if you work with tech that's in high demand.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#54
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your reasoning on why you expect that people will have to take a pay cut for working remotely. Would have thought it would be the opposite. Office space, hardware and energy cost a bit.

Ah, that's easy. The negotiating power of a company, which is practically a group of people, is much higher than that of employees, which are just 1 person. A big company loses what? 0.00001% of its revenue if it doesn't hire the right person for a specific position? An employee loses 100% of their revenue if they don't get hired or get fired. So companies can pretty much do what they want (up to a point where they c…

This is a problem other countries don't have to that extent because labor unions have far greater leverage compared to the US . In Germany we have huge and powerful labor unions in the metal industry for example.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#55

Regardless of jobs containing "onsite" or "remote", the metric that really matters is - how many people are actually applying... Companies can advertise "onsite" all they want, but from all the stories I've heard about how hard it is to find good developers, and how developers are leaving their work-from-home jobs as soon as they're told to come into the office, you have to draw the conclusion that it's a buyer's mar…

This is exactly right. It's not just that the firms can choose among all the world's remote devs, the reverse is also true. I've been turned down when offering remote jobs to devs who found something more attractive, it happens and the market is a two way negotiation.

Yeah - I've stopped in the middle of the interview process when I found out the 'remote' position required 25% (or more travel).

Now I just pick up the phone "not interested unless it's 100% WFH"...Doesn't seem to have slowed down the recruiting calls.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#56
Didn't read the article - no access, just some thoughts: the downward pressure on wages will probably become a norm for WFH. Google has already set a precedent. However, unless it takes another unexpected turn, WFH is win-win-win: companies can save on office space and a bit on reduced salaries too; employees will have a healthier life and the freedom to live in cheaper locations; and finally WFH is good for the environment!

Potentially yet another "win" for the companies: some of the unnecessary engineering manager jobs will be eliminated. My impression is that in fully remote companies the opportunities to prove your importance when there's little to none, are limited. The occasional video call situation as opposed to always-in-the-office one means everyone becomes more efficient in communicating things.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#57
As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature.

There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new projects were the results of a casual lunch discussion even just random hallway chats. You can't duplicate that with Slack messages or scheduled Zoom meetings. The reason for that isn't because of process or infrastructure deficiency with remote working, it has to do with simple human nature.

Even as recently as this summer I've personally seen entire teams get sidelined for important projects because their engineering leadership didn't bother to physically attend an optionally in-person offsite. Guess what, all the most important conversations took place after the Zoom camera was shut off. An entire major initiative came into idea during a casual walk to grab coffee.

As long as companies are run by human there will be politics, off the record discussions, darkroom decisions, favoritism, subjective impressions, subconscious biases, and "out of sight, out of mind" selective memories.

Again, that's just human nature. A C suite executive at a top tier tech company is driven by the same human nature as a caveman. You can't engineer human nature away with process and you sure as hell can't undo them with technology.

Obviously you don't have to care about any of that and there is nothing wrong to focus on other things in life other than work (and many people should), but the inevitable end result will be there will be two categories of workers, even within the same company, if they allow optional remote work.

All the best, shiniest projects will be local right under exec’s noses. The "A-team" will be kept close, or just as likely, the ones who stay close/in office will be recognized as the "A-team". I believe there will be a lot of jobs that will be fully remote at first, then companies will lower comp for those jobs and start giving them less sexy/boring/keep the lights on type of work, and then eventually they will be outsourced out or automated away, yes, even for highly paid FAANG software engineers.

Edit: Some people have brought up the unique benefits of Slack messages like them being async, and by definition clearer and with better record keeping, etc. By people going back to the office 1 or 2 days a week we aren't going to be dumping Slack or Zoom. They will still serve as nice complements.

Edit: Haha I really ruffed some feathers here. I get it, many on HN believe anyone who derive value from in-person interaction are sub-par employees who aren't actually productive. I also do believe that you can have life-long relationships with people without ever hearing their voices or seeing their faces. But I'd just like to remind people that HN is a relative unique group of individuals (even among engineers) that probably prefers dealing with code than dealing with fellow human beings. But the very fact that all of our communication based technology has been progressing to mimic in-person meetings as much as possible (text -> voice -> video -> telepresence -> VR?) says a lot on this subject.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#58

This is unfortunately not the experience I have had in Australia. I looked into a few jobs earlier in the year, and spoke with a few recruiters. Despite the initial remote-friendly job description, it ended up being full time or more, with 1 day work from home a week. I look forward to when remote working is common, with internal processes and culture adapted to suit multiple modes of working.

ah yeah... Here in Germany, I got offered one day per month.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#59
post #16

Right now companies havent figured out how to handle this situation and are playing along. I'm sure, sooner or later tides will turn and either you'll be roped into coming to office or take a pay cut for working remotely. So enjoy while it last!!

I don't get your reasoning on why you expect that people will have to take a pay cut for working remotely. Would have thought it would be the opposite. Office space, hardware and energy cost a bit.

How much employers may save is not really relevant. What's relevant is what employees want and are willing to accept.

If people prefer remote work and that also saves them time and money then they will probably be willing to accept a lower salary than they will for the same job on-site.

IMHO that's the logic of companies that are suggesting pay cuts for employees that won't come back to the office.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#60
post #16

Right now companies havent figured out how to handle this situation and are playing along. I'm sure, sooner or later tides will turn and either you'll be roped into coming to office or take a pay cut for working remotely. So enjoy while it last!!

I don't get your reasoning on why you expect that people will have to take a pay cut for working remotely. Would have thought it would be the opposite. Office space, hardware and energy cost a bit.

Wages are more determined by supply/demand of labor and less so by the value generated.

You’ll make comparatively less working remotely because the pool of workers willing to work remote are higher in supply. Office jobs will be forced to offer higher wages because their supply of candidates has shrunk.

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