New network of European sleeper trains planned • Hacker News Board

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#51

Post by CaptainZapp » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #4

nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

Trains compete with cars, not with airplanes.

Bruxelles to Paris : 90 minutes, Zurich to Paris : 244 minutes, London to Paris 149 minutes

I could go on.

Show me where a car is competitive for any of those routes. In addition, not even plane is competitive if you consider the airport to city transfer and back.

It also saves you, at least in the case of Paris, Europes most ghastly airport experience, which is CDG.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#52

Post by pintxo » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 2:11 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #50

streamofdigits wrote: post #45

For measurable environmental impact the network should at least support the annual migration of Homo Europeanus Nordicus to the Mediterranean sea.

That would be great. Hopefully the new tunnel[1] linking Zealand and North Germany should make that possible. A direct connection from Oslo to Hamburg would open up so many good train connections. Here's hoping DB doesn't screw up the connection like they did with the Gotthard tunnel. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fehmarn_Belt_Fixed_Link

They surely will

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#53

Post by VBprogrammer » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 2:15 PM UTC

calpaterson wrote: post #19

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #5

Some information to put into perspective the articles which are now regularly published about the revival of sleeper trains. First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. There are plenty of them in Germany and Eastern Europe. Often they go from large cities to holiday destinations and therefore are mainly used by people travelling for leisure. The novelty of these…

> First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. In the UK, experiences vary. The new Caledonian Sleeper (London-Highlands) is apparently a pretty rubbish experience. However, I took the Night Riviera (London - Cornwall) a few years ago and found it a pretty good experience even though I very nearly missed my stop in Truro. The problem for a business traveller is tha…

I've haven't taken the Caledonian sleeper since the revamp but did take it a few times before that.

In my experience it was a near perfect form of travel. Arrive at a train station long after most people had gone home, board the train and fall asleep, wake up at the platform very early the next day. You lose practically no 'useful' time.*

The one thing which stopped us making use of it more frequently was the cost. It was generally more expensive than flying, much more expensive than driving and even more so now that we have a child.

* In fairness, it's pretty loud and not massively comfortable so if you are a light sleeper you might not get the full magic carpet effect.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#54

Post by toomanybeersies » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

secondraft wrote: post #47

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #5

Some information to put into perspective the articles which are now regularly published about the revival of sleeper trains. First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. There are plenty of them in Germany and Eastern Europe. Often they go from large cities to holiday destinations and therefore are mainly used by people travelling for leisure. The novelty of these…

> Track capacity at night is often severly limited by maintenance work Makes one wonder what it would do to the economics of train transportation if maintenance work was required to be carried out during daytime and passenger transportation was optimised for comfortable sleeper trains.

That would probably cause a whole lot of problems for commuter rail.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#55

Post by dkdbejwi383 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #5

Some information to put into perspective the articles which are now regularly published about the revival of sleeper trains. First, if you look at Europe as a whole, you will see that sleeper trains were never really dead. There are plenty of them in Germany and Eastern Europe. Often they go from large cities to holiday destinations and therefore are mainly used by people travelling for leisure. The novelty of these…

I have taken the DB sleeper from Amsterdam to Prague. It was great. Not the best night of sleep ever, but it's great to go to have a full day in one city, have a nightcap and sleep on the train, drink a coffee with a light breakfast and be in a new city at 08:00 the next morning. No having to get trains/busses/taxis to airports, waiting around for hours, a short flight where you can't sleep at all for the light and noise, etc.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#56

Post by yohannparis » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #18

CaptainZapp wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think the network, as proposed is a problem. It only seems useful if you're Paris based, since this appears to be the center node of the network. edit: This at least appears to be the case for the French startup mentioned and the map displayed at the very top of the article.

Well, that's France for you. The ÖBB Nightjet network is a lot less centralized: https://www.nightjet.com/dam/jcr:6a8041cb-0131-4ad3-84fd-251...

This startup is not from the SNCF (national railroad), it's not comparable in terms of service with another national railroad. I'd love to see the project including ÖBB, SBB, & SNCF!

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#57

Post by choeger » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

gaff33 wrote: post #6

nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

If just you look at flight vs train then sure the flight will win. But the train goes from the city centre, and includes a night of accomodation. If you look at taxi + flight + taxi + night at hotel - the train will be attractive. If we correctly price externalities (i.e. environmental cost) then the train should win hands down!

> If we correctly price externalities (i.e. environmental cost) then the train should win hands down!

I would not be so certain on that one. The downside of trains is the massive infrastructure requirements. I don't think there are any privately funded and profitable tracks anywhere in Europe. Government pays for this, of course. Of course, if you only account for carbon dioxide, things can look different.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#58

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

nottorp wrote: post #34

corobo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Aumont was reluctant to give ticket prices, but said these would be competitive with that of a short-haul flight If I'm booking time off work and the price is the same I'm going to opt for a longer holiday Good luck Aumont

Actually you have the same holiday but you're arriving at your destination in the morning after sleeping all the way, instead of waking up early to be at the airport 2 hours before the flight etc. Sleeper trains go at night generally.

This, and also for many of us riding the train through picturesque European countryside is part and parcel of taking a holiday, though of course ymmv.

I mean, for me taking a holiday is time to slow down and enjoy the sights. I miss a hell of a lot of that when I fly.

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#59

Post by choeger » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #48

nivenkos wrote: post #2

I'm sure it'll be at least 10x the cost of flights. Train travel is just too expensive.

That's a bit of a false comparison though. Alongside your flight, you also need to pay for a taxis/Ubers/trains to and from the airport on each side, and a night in a hotel. That can easily add an extra 300 Euro to your trip (one way).

That hotel night might not be necessary when you take a plane, though. Maybe you just safe a day of vacation instead? In that case, how much money does the plane trip safe you?

Re: New network of European sleeper trains planned

#60

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 2:31 PM UTC

choeger wrote: post #57

gaff33 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If just you look at flight vs train then sure the flight will win. But the train goes from the city centre, and includes a night of accomodation. If you look at taxi + flight + taxi + night at hotel - the train will be attractive. If we correctly price externalities (i.e. environmental cost) then the train should win hands down!

> If we correctly price externalities (i.e. environmental cost) then the train should win hands down! I would not be so certain on that one. The downside of trains is the massive infrastructure requirements. I don't think there are any privately funded and profitable tracks anywhere in Europe. Government pays for this, of course. Of course, if you only account for carbon dioxide, things can look different.

"Massive infrastructure requirements" for trains. Compared to what though?