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Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#51

Post by jacquesm »

rasz wrote: post #47
jacquesm wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But something being illegal is actually incentive to give it a shot in Poland, this is ancient tradition. At least since Soviet Bloc times and quite possibly before then. Nielegalny translates roughly as 'must be interesting', or so I'm told ;)

Pre 1989 under Iron Curtain pretty much _everything_ was illegal. Any activity not aligned with primary party goals and thinking lines had some paragraph attached to it. It all stemmed from the "mother country", Stalins Russia. As Beria used to say "Show me the man and I'll show you the crime". Thats Lavrentiy Beria, head of Secret Police under Stalin, and the father of Katyn massacre - murdering 22K Polish military…

Poland in 1986 was quite different from what it is today. I don't know how old you are but I remember it quite vividly.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#52

Post by amanaplanacanal »

skwirl wrote: post #39
AbrahamParangi wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. There seems to be a major cultural difference on this. On the one hand, the argument is that individuals collecting artifacts destroys the scientific utility of the excavation site. On the other hand, someone doing the work to find coins seems better than nobody doing that work and having them lay in the ground. I wonder if there are more instances of this trade-off between potential good and immediate g…

This is an interesting topic because it's not something I would have thought about as an American. You aren't likely to find an artifact of much archeological value in much of the United States using a metal detector. Maybe if you could we would take the same stance as Europe on the issue.

Doesn’t the US have similar laws preventing the collection of Native American artifacts, though? They just didn’t use much metal.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#53

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

> “This is a clear message to those who, for the benefit and selfish pleasure of a few, rob us of our common heritage and erase entire swaths of our history.”

Speaking of robbing heritage and history, this guy is a complete amateur, compared to the history robbing that the European nations engaged in. Many archeological treasures were stripped from India, Africa, and the Middle East and sent to European museums. Furthermore, those collections are still at the museums and for the most part have not been returned to the countries from which they were taken.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#54

Post by rasz »

jacquesm wrote: post #51
rasz wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pre 1989 under Iron Curtain pretty much _everything_ was illegal. Any activity not aligned with primary party goals and thinking lines had some paragraph attached to it. It all stemmed from the "mother country", Stalins Russia. As Beria used to say "Show me the man and I'll show you the crime". Thats Lavrentiy Beria, head of Secret Police under Stalin, and the father of Katyn massacre - murdering 22K Polish military…

Poland in 1986 was quite different from what it is today. I don't know how old you are but I remember it quite vividly.

I do remember 1986. Ubiquitous queues and ration stamps for petrol, meat, sugar, chocolate, etc. Teacher telling us to report if parents say bad things about people on TV. Oranges once a year for Christmas from Cuba. Lego Technics set worth several salaries after my father smuggled half a car of crystal glassware to East Germany. Hardly any good memories.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#55

Post by [deleted] »

flagrant wrote: post #50
yostrovs wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You imply that an individual is not part of humanity so that only museums, usually governed by the state, create the illusion of humanity. I disagree. The Chinese government during the Cultural Revolution destroyed nearly the entirety of Chinese historical objects. What was saved by unofficial groups or individuals became Chinese history. I'm just glad the Jacobins are not totally in charge in France, as they would t…

What is the functional difference between destroying an artifact and keeping an artifact in a private collection where nobody can see it, from the point of view of humanity?

[deleted]

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#56

Post by jacquesm »

rasz wrote: post #54
jacquesm wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland in 1986 was quite different from what it is today. I don't know how old you are but I remember it quite vividly.

I do remember 1986. Ubiquitous queues and ration stamps for petrol, meat, sugar, chocolate, etc. Teacher telling us to report if parents say bad things about people on TV. Oranges once a year for Christmas from Cuba. Lego Technics set worth several salaries after my father smuggled half a car of crystal glassware to East Germany. Hardly any good memories.

There were good things too: stronger friendships, lots of creativity, less crime (not counting corruption, which was rampant), less drugs.

But yes, you're absolutely right, lots of things were quite terrible.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#58

Post by tiagod »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #19
jeltz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because if you remove treasures from their context we you often destroy an important archeological site. Many European countries do not want looters to destroy their heritages and windows into history.

Interesting. There seems to be a major cultural difference on this. On the one hand, the argument is that individuals collecting artifacts destroys the scientific utility of the excavation site. On the other hand, someone doing the work to find coins seems better than nobody doing that work and having them lay in the ground. I wonder if there are more instances of this trade-off between potential good and immediate g…

> On the other hand, someone doing the work to find coins seems better than nobody doing that work and having them lay in the ground.

Taking the coins from the ground isn't the important part, its the scientific analysis in context that provides insight into the place's history. A coin in itself doesn't tell much, a lot of the same were probably found before.

It would be better for the sites to be explored properly later on. If it was a first come, first serve kind of thing, there wouldn't be anything left for future technology.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#59

Post by boxed »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #19
jeltz wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because if you remove treasures from their context we you often destroy an important archeological site. Many European countries do not want looters to destroy their heritages and windows into history.

Interesting. There seems to be a major cultural difference on this. On the one hand, the argument is that individuals collecting artifacts destroys the scientific utility of the excavation site. On the other hand, someone doing the work to find coins seems better than nobody doing that work and having them lay in the ground. I wonder if there are more instances of this trade-off between potential good and immediate g…

There is no good at all here.

Re: Officials seize 27k artifacts looted by a single French treasure hunter

#60

Post by boxed »

Mirioron wrote: post #48
lodovic wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Someone doing the work to find coins" - the flip side is "selfish with no moral compass". Historians won't have reliable sources anymore, parts of sites will be missing, this is such a waste. But hey someone made a few bucks.

Or alternatively, nobody will find those coins and we won't even know they existed.

We know the coins exists. Duh.

The coins existing has no value except to criminals. The actual value is the total context of the site which has huge value to archeologists. Archeology is also progressing so the later something is excavated the more we learn. So just destroying stuff like this guy did robs us all of tons of data.

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