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Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

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Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#51

How was $1000/month for anyone over age 18 supposed to be funded? Without exact details answering such, do voters believe this is more than seeking voter-attention. Are there actual plans of implementation whose economics/numbers work? I see people discuss such but never see answers.

By the people under 18. It's worked for 2 decades now-- issue massive debt and let our children figure out how to pay it.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#52
post #20

I'm sure we could find the money for this by eliminating existing duplicative or particularly wasteful line items in the fountain of corporate pork, waste and fraud that is the federal budget. https://www.usdebtclock.org/

The federal budget was $4.11 trillion in 2018. Quick Googling doesn't give me a number for population over 18, but I'm going to guess >= 200 million (>= 300 million total in the US).

So that's 200M people * (12 months / year) * 1000 / person = 2.4 trillion.

Most of the budget is defense, social security, medicare and interest on the debt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#/...).

Yang's plan would've required major tax increases, and/or cuts to core programs. This isn't me editorializing, just stating what would be required.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#53

I think well before we consider universal basic income, we should consider universal basic services . Many services are already highly regulated and naturally somewhat difficult to exploit. Healthcare is the obvious one. It's not like you can get a surgery and then resell it to exploit the system. (You could, of course, exploit things like pain medication, but overall healthcare is not expoitation-friendly.) Some amo…

The problem with declaring "universal basic X" is that once the "base" level gets set it gets very hard to reduce the baseline. We see this in countries that use fuel subsidies and are now trying to withdraw them because they are too expensive, and same goes for food. For example; universal basic water in Arizona might have the adverse effect of incentivizing greater water consumption. Universal basic fuel can incent…

Secondary market reselling as an "absolutely massive [problem]" with universal healthcare?

Do you have any credible sources on that?

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#54
post #14
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way we are funding massive corporate bailouts. Sovereign government debt does not work like personal debt, for the simple reason that money can be printed. Fears of inflation in a time like this are completely unwarranted. edit: Back of the envelope math shows that 1000/month for the US population is about $4 trillion/year. The Fed has pumped more than that into financial markets since this pandemic has star…

I agree that worries of inflation are unwarranted (if anything we are at risk of deflation), but what happens after the economy returns? Aren't we at risk of inflation from all of the new money dumped into the economy?

US consumer debt is exceptionally high [1]. This was true long before the pandemic. There is plenty of demand for money on the books and the underclass has a long way to catch up even after that.

1. https://www.thebalance.com/consumer-debt-statistics-causes-a...

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#55
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments that centrally plan all the basic necessities you outline are terrible at all of them. Democide tends to happen as government collects more power in the process. Letting government give a basic income and the private sector filling supply is a much more reasonable solution. Let’s a free market exist to satisfy demand while recognizing the end of jobs is about here.

I think it's pretty hard to argue that private companies are good and ethical at operating natural monopolies. History and all evidence is not on your side. I'll list a few examples: the California blackouts after electrical deregulation, the Bolivian water crisis after water supplies were privatized, the abuses of companies like Comcast in the US, etc. Even Adam Smith warned of natural monopolies. Nearly any economi…

Are healthcare outcomes worse in the US than other first world countries? Life expectancy is endogenous to variables like diet and exercise. Looking at cancer survival rates, the US is best at some and mediocre at others but other countries are not "objectively better"[0].

Is health expenditure in the US higher than in other countries? Yes, but that is because the US is rich, really rich. If we plot US Real Household Income against healthcare consumption, the US is perfectly inline with global trends[1].

[0] https://www.cdc.gov/cancer/dcpc/research/articles/concord-2....

[1] https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/2018/11/19/why-everything...

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#56
post #11

How was $1000/month for anyone over age 18 supposed to be funded? Without exact details answering such, do voters believe this is more than seeking voter-attention. Are there actual plans of implementation whose economics/numbers work? I see people discuss such but never see answers.

The same way we are funding massive corporate bailouts. Sovereign government debt does not work like personal debt, for the simple reason that money can be printed. Fears of inflation in a time like this are completely unwarranted. edit: Back of the envelope math shows that 1000/month for the US population is about $4 trillion/year. The Fed has pumped more than that into financial markets since this pandemic has star…

Isn't that the approach that Venezuela took? To me, any proposal to fund UBI by printing money has to explain why Venezuela failed, and how the new proposal is different in a way that matters.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#57

How was $1000/month for anyone over age 18 supposed to be funded? Without exact details answering such, do voters believe this is more than seeking voter-attention. Are there actual plans of implementation whose economics/numbers work? I see people discuss such but never see answers.

Its called redistribution. I understand and appreciate that that answer is not palatable to many people but that is the clear answer.

Even if you took all the money from all the billionaires, and we're assuming frictionless transaction and 100% liquidity, you can't afford it for more than a couple years. The money just runs out.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#58

I think well before we consider universal basic income, we should consider universal basic services . Many services are already highly regulated and naturally somewhat difficult to exploit. Healthcare is the obvious one. It's not like you can get a surgery and then resell it to exploit the system. (You could, of course, exploit things like pain medication, but overall healthcare is not expoitation-friendly.) Some amo…

Cheap or free money tends to get captured by for-profit service providers, who raise their prices accordingly. Example: The upward spiral of for-profit college tuition cost is widely thought to have been driven in large part by the availability of federally-guaranteed student loans and Pell grants. [0]

[0] https://www.npr.org/2018/12/13/672952507/does-more-federal-a...

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#59

How was $1000/month for anyone over age 18 supposed to be funded? Without exact details answering such, do voters believe this is more than seeking voter-attention. Are there actual plans of implementation whose economics/numbers work? I see people discuss such but never see answers.

By really applying taxation to rich?

In almost all instances, the readership of this site would count under "the rich" for the purposes of government programs.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#60
post #11

How was $1000/month for anyone over age 18 supposed to be funded? Without exact details answering such, do voters believe this is more than seeking voter-attention. Are there actual plans of implementation whose economics/numbers work? I see people discuss such but never see answers.

The same way we are funding massive corporate bailouts. Sovereign government debt does not work like personal debt, for the simple reason that money can be printed. Fears of inflation in a time like this are completely unwarranted. edit: Back of the envelope math shows that 1000/month for the US population is about $4 trillion/year. The Fed has pumped more than that into financial markets since this pandemic has star…

The Fed is lending money to prevent a financial crisis, not simply giving it away. Look back at the 2008 crisis and see that the government actually profited significantly from issuing those debts in the long term.

UBI is a giveaway not a loan.

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