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We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

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Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#51

Post by seventhtiger »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #10
x2f10 wrote: post #5

How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.

Document, and shut up. Document every time they say something false - time and date and medium, and exact words. Shut up: for each instance, say once that they're wrong, then don't argue. When it matters, when there's a decision where this person's view is threatening to sway matters in the wrong direction, go with a massive documentation dump - everything they've said on the subject, exact words and date and time an…

I don't agree with this. I think you should document a lot of things to CYA, but don't use it unless your ass is on the line. Dropping a load of documented incompetence just to sway a decision is beyond petty, no matter what the decision is. If someone on my team did that I would question their judgement and teamwork.

At some point employees shouldn't manage other employees. Dealing with this person is the manager's job so as a coworker don't try to do it.

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#52

Post by uoaei »

nealabq wrote: post #34
dang wrote: post #2

Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8519764

The phrase "well-trained idiot" appeared in an HN comment earlier today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21123542 Although they mean different things -- a confident idiot is uninformed but convinced he is the opposite; a well-trained idiot has been brought up (usually in an upper social class) learning how to fake intelligence -- I wonder if https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=who-knows (who submitted this post…

Not to mention the "useful idiot".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#53

Post by [deleted] »

ggm wrote: post #47
i_feel_great wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayne, is that you? I hated you at first for modifying the core libraries to break standard fuctionality, writing 500-line SQL statements full of string concatenations and using mutable globals all over the place, but now I see your point. Thanks, I have been earning an above average salary fixing your bugs and I will have a job for life. Still, fuck you man.

No, its not Wayne but he's my spirit brother. I can see us both in the forest, banging the drum of expediency while the world flails us with stinging nettles. "they also serve, who only stand and stuff up the codebase" Also, FORTRAN globals and variables called i,j and k ROCK!

[deleted]

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#54

Post by 77pt77 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #10
x2f10 wrote: post #5

How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.

Document, and shut up. Document every time they say something false - time and date and medium, and exact words. Shut up: for each instance, say once that they're wrong, then don't argue. When it matters, when there's a decision where this person's view is threatening to sway matters in the wrong direction, go with a massive documentation dump - everything they've said on the subject, exact words and date and time an…

> Document, and shut up.

> Document every time they say something false - time and date and medium, and exact words.

Facts don't matter.

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#55

Post by bproctor »

mrhappyunhappy wrote: post #38
CPAhem wrote: post #3

Interestingly those who tend to be more realistic in their self expectations are more prone to depression. False confidence may be the route to happiness or at least optimism.

Would you rather be a happy idiot or a miserable know-it-all?

A happy idiot I guess. Since the miserable know-it-all is actually also an idiot, they just don't know it. So they're just a miserable idiot.

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#56

Post by andrewflnr »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #39
andrewflnr wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: What actually goes wrong, in concrete terms, if you explain that you're leaving because you don't want to work with someone who is aggressively incompetent? I get that people won't like it, but how am I actually harmed by speaking the truth? I've heard a lot of wishy-washy answers about burning bridges, but I have trouble making myself believe that's enough reason to let someone continue fucking shi…

Slightly lower lifetime earnings? How would that happen? It might happen if word ever got back to the aggressively incompetent one, and he (maybe it's a stereotype, but I'll assume male gender given the description of the behavior) was in some position of influence at a future job of yours. Well, people do change, sometimes even for the better, but I'd think twice before hiring at such a place in the future. Or, mana…

> Slightly lower lifetime earnings? How would that happen?

"Something something burned bridges something opportunities something", I expect. I don't know, it just seems like something the "keep it to yourself" crowd would warn me about. I really want to believe you, which is why I'm looking for good counter arguments (I swear I don't only do this in comment threads about intellectual humility).

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#57

Post by m463 »

notfashion wrote: post #25
m463 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you will ever convince someone they're wrong. I'm reminded of the beginning of "How to Win Friends and Influnce People" by Dale Carnegie. It spoke of a man who murdered a policeman when he asked to see his driver's license. He went through a trial and ended up in the electric chair. I think the point was the guy didn't say "This is what I get for killing someone" instead he said "This is what I get for…

The presence of the term "gaslighting" in the comment you are replying to implies that this might be a situation involving narcissism. It's all very well, in a pop psych way, to tell someone "be more zen", but there is little useful overlap between that advice and the course of action that is usually recommended for people dealing with a serious narcissist (to get away from them any way you can). I don't think you're…

I was thinking - don't make it your mission to prove a jerk is wrong, don't engage.

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#58

Post by m463 »

phs318u wrote: post #43
m463 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you will ever convince someone they're wrong. I'm reminded of the beginning of "How to Win Friends and Influnce People" by Dale Carnegie. It spoke of a man who murdered a policeman when he asked to see his driver's license. He went through a trial and ended up in the electric chair. I think the point was the guy didn't say "This is what I get for killing someone" instead he said "This is what I get for…

So our attitude to others should be more like Wally and less like Dilbert and Alice? I like it! And I may add, “Mission Accomplished”, though it took me over 30 years.

"Early civilizations had no concept of zero."...

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#59

Post by watwut »

m463 wrote: post #21
x2f10 wrote: post #5

How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.

I don't think you will ever convince someone they're wrong. I'm reminded of the beginning of "How to Win Friends and Influnce People" by Dale Carnegie. It spoke of a man who murdered a policeman when he asked to see his driver's license. He went through a trial and ended up in the electric chair. I think the point was the guy didn't say "This is what I get for killing someone" instead he said "This is what I get for…

> You should not let people like this torment you so. Instead, become a zen master. Develop openness, curiosity and a sort of lighthearted kindness. No scowling or taking things personally from unenlightened troglodytes. You live in the clouds!

Basically, be passive and bully will surely go away theory. If he wont go away, just accept to be a doormat.

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