Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

psmag.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 135 posts

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#21

Post by m463 »

x2f10 wrote: post #5

How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.

I don't think you will ever convince someone they're wrong.

I'm reminded of the beginning of "How to Win Friends and Influnce People" by Dale Carnegie. It spoke of a man who murdered a policeman when he asked to see his driver's license. He went through a trial and ended up in the electric chair. I think the point was the guy didn't say "This is what I get for killing someone" instead he said "This is what I get for defending myself"

You should not let people like this torment you so.

Instead, become a zen master. Develop openness, curiosity and a sort of lighthearted kindness. No scowling or taking things personally from unenlightened troglodytes. You live in the clouds!

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#22

Post by jdc »

sandwall wrote: post #7
x2f10 wrote: post #5

How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.

There's a parable... If you meet an a__hole in the morning, you met an a__hole. If you meet a__holes throughout the day, you are the a__hole. Moral of the story, if it's just one person, let them be. You don't have to win.

I prefer the weaker version:

"If one person tells you you're drunk, and you feel fine, ignore him. If ten people tell you you're drunk, go and have a lie down."

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#23

Post by tootie »

ggm wrote: post #20

Hey, I built a 40 year career on 'fake it until you have to leave or learn how to make it' -So don't knock this. And, all you young whippersnappers remember that its only old fools like me messing up in the code which gives you meaningful jobs fixing bugs in the future.

I have grown in confidence over 20 years not by building capabilities but realizing that everyone else is guessing just as much as I am. And I'm at least an above-average guesser in my field of "expertise".

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#24

Post by shortandsweet »

x2f10 wrote: post #5

How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.

Have them repeat back your point of view in their own words. That's all you can do. People are either rational or irrational. You can't change that part.

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#25

Post by notfashion »

m463 wrote: post #21
x2f10 wrote: post #5

How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.

I don't think you will ever convince someone they're wrong. I'm reminded of the beginning of "How to Win Friends and Influnce People" by Dale Carnegie. It spoke of a man who murdered a policeman when he asked to see his driver's license. He went through a trial and ended up in the electric chair. I think the point was the guy didn't say "This is what I get for killing someone" instead he said "This is what I get for…

The presence of the term "gaslighting" in the comment you are replying to implies that this might be a situation involving narcissism. It's all very well, in a pop psych way, to tell someone "be more zen", but there is little useful overlap between that advice and the course of action that is usually recommended for people dealing with a serious narcissist (to get away from them any way you can).

I don't think you're helping by bringing positive pop psychology and generic consumer zen "mastery" to what is effectively a borderline clinical mental health situation. Narcissism and gaslighting (whatever the actual situation described in the previous comment) are way beyond what can be smoothed away with equanimity and a good attitude. It's unhelpful and a bit condescending to suggest otherwise.

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#26

Post by vvanders »

x2f10 wrote: post #5

How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.

If the needle isn't moving and you've exhausted the escalation path(which it sounds like you have) it's time to start looking around.

People like that drag orgs down and it's a management problem that either gets recognized and dealt with or people leave. It totally sucks but sometimes if you can't change the dynamics then you need to change the environment you're in.

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#27

Post by fallingfrog »

There’s a financial quiz embedded in one of the links in the article. To test my own false confidence, I decided to try it. So before taking the quiz, I decided I would describe myself as reasonably well informed amateur, nowhere close to expert. I got 6 out of 6, but they were fairly easy questions (except for one question about bond yields which I had to think about). After the quiz I’m more certain that I really don’t have the kind of deep knowledge that a quant or someone like that has. So yeah I’d rank myself as a layman.

I’m curious as to how some of the rest of us do? Rank yourself before and after?

http://www.usfinancialcapability.org/quiz.php

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#28

Post by arandr0x »

x2f10 wrote: post #5

How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.

You have no idea what they do or don't understand because all you have to go on is a noisy model of their mind in yours.

You need to focus on facts, actions and consequences. They don't understand how it works (your explanation) THEREFORE they question things that you thought had been put to rest? Ask them what would their opinion be IF (factual thing they're mistaken on) was true. Sometimes people do not disagree with you on facts; but their emotions can't let them agree on courses of action. Often you can direct people (with questions) towards verbalizing exactly what you wanted to tell them in the first place.

They don't understand how it works (your explanation) THEREFORE they are saying falsehoods about it to others? Correct the facts one by one as they come by, their model will self-update eventually. That comes standard with the human being firmware.

They don't understand how it works (your explanation) THEREFORE they are making assumptions or having expectations of your own work that are wrong? Kindly redirect by asking what factually they think is wrong with this part of your work, and what they think can be done about it, and who they think is the right person to do it. (I am being vague because you don't specify if the person is your superior, but if not, you can be more forceful in wording)

There is a chance you are in fact misinterpreting their words, because of incompatible jargon, either of you sucking at communication, or irreconcilable difference of interests.

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#29

Post by arandr0x »

notfashion wrote: post #25
m463 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you will ever convince someone they're wrong. I'm reminded of the beginning of "How to Win Friends and Influnce People" by Dale Carnegie. It spoke of a man who murdered a policeman when he asked to see his driver's license. He went through a trial and ended up in the electric chair. I think the point was the guy didn't say "This is what I get for killing someone" instead he said "This is what I get for…

The presence of the term "gaslighting" in the comment you are replying to implies that this might be a situation involving narcissism. It's all very well, in a pop psych way, to tell someone "be more zen", but there is little useful overlap between that advice and the course of action that is usually recommended for people dealing with a serious narcissist (to get away from them any way you can). I don't think you're…

The above situation seems to happen at work, and it's unusual for people with personality disorders to simultaneously have major breaks with reality at work and be undiagnosed long-term. It's odd that it's the first interpretation you are choosing to address (by calling somebody else condescending to boot), although yes, the proper reaction to people with issues that severe is backing away slowly, so it's worth being said to cover all the bases.

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#30

Post by [deleted] »

notfashion wrote: post #25
m463 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you will ever convince someone they're wrong. I'm reminded of the beginning of "How to Win Friends and Influnce People" by Dale Carnegie. It spoke of a man who murdered a policeman when he asked to see his driver's license. He went through a trial and ended up in the electric chair. I think the point was the guy didn't say "This is what I get for killing someone" instead he said "This is what I get for…

The presence of the term "gaslighting" in the comment you are replying to implies that this might be a situation involving narcissism. It's all very well, in a pop psych way, to tell someone "be more zen", but there is little useful overlap between that advice and the course of action that is usually recommended for people dealing with a serious narcissist (to get away from them any way you can). I don't think you're…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN