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We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

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Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#31
post #5

How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.

I've been in the same position quite a lot recently, so I thought I'd add my 5c. There are a few conclusions I've come to that depend on the person doing this:

1. Gaslighting - definitely possible, though not the first assumption you should make.

2. The person very badly doesn't want it to be true. Usually this is because they're on a tight deadline and/or may not be accustomed to working in a team (who may not share their own deadline).

3. The person doesn't understand your area, and doesn't want to. Their existing (less complete) understanding says that it should work this way. You are therefore the incompetent one, not them.

(On #1, you could be justified in making that conclusion first if your experience resonates strongly with this - highly recommended reading - https://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html)

(On #3 - working in an area your boss('s boss's boss, etc) has little or no respect for is hard. This is the basis for the "do you see engineering as a cost centre or value centre?" question when going for interviews.)

Coincidentally with a sibling comment, I'm reading How to Win Friends and Influence People at the moment, and I concur: you can't convince someone they're wrong. Arguing is almost never the best course of action (in any situation).

Some solutions I've found that work sometimes (to address the symptoms at least) -

- Ask them to try it for themselves. Let them use the app / make the request / build the component / create the logical argument / read the docs / read the bug reports / etc. - Ask them for help to find the solution, or ask if you can leave it with them. - Ask them to demonstrate it working as they believe it should.

Once you've done any or all of those things, go have lunch. (I'm assuming they won't want to pair on it there and then given the situation.)

Sometimes when you get back, magic will have happened, and they will have "discovered" it doesn't work - and they'll immediately ask you to do something different, often urgently. Note you won't usually get credit for raising the issue in the first place. At best you're still in the "doesn't understand the considerations at my level" basket in their mind. But nonetheless you'll be asked to do something differently to move past this block.

If that doesn't happen, document somewhere that you've hit this issue, reference the conversation, and any documentation (or write it yourself) and move to another piece of work. If #2 or #3 are in play, missing a deadline is likely not actually your responsibility.

Other times the problem is systemic (which ironically can be a euphemism for "personal"), in which case you may be better off just leaving (assuming you're in a position to do so). You do you, let them do them, without you.

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#32
post #5

How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.

I've been in the same position quite a lot recently, so I thought I'd add my 5c. There are a few conclusions I've come to that depend on the person doing this: 1. Gaslighting - definitely possible, though not the first assumption you should make. 2. The person very badly doesn't want it to be true. Usually this is because they're on a tight deadline and/or may not be accustomed to working in a team (who may not share…

(I would edit for formatting but HN isn't letting me do that for some reason, hopefully that's clear enough. There should be a set of dot points in the second half.)

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#33
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Document, and shut up. Document every time they say something false - time and date and medium, and exact words. Shut up: for each instance, say once that they're wrong, then don't argue. When it matters, when there's a decision where this person's view is threatening to sway matters in the wrong direction, go with a massive documentation dump - everything they've said on the subject, exact words and date and time an…

This is terrible advice. When you quit you no longer have a stake in the game. Say NOTHING beyond platitudes.

Serious question: What actually goes wrong, in concrete terms, if you explain that you're leaving because you don't want to work with someone who is aggressively incompetent? I get that people won't like it, but how am I actually harmed by speaking the truth? I've heard a lot of wishy-washy answers about burning bridges, but I have trouble making myself believe that's enough reason to let someone continue fucking shit up when they might be stopped if someone just knew what was happening.

Edit: Assume I've already accepted the risk of slightly lower lifetime earnings due to following principles rather than the money.

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#34
post #2

Discussed at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8519764

The phrase "well-trained idiot" appeared in an HN comment earlier today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21123542

Although they mean different things -- a confident idiot is uninformed but convinced he is the opposite; a well-trained idiot has been brought up (usually in an upper social class) learning how to fake intelligence -- I wonder if https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=who-knows (who submitted this post) read this comment and had the notion bouncing around in their head.

In any case, there's also an "educated idiot": https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Educated%20I...

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#35
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you will ever convince someone they're wrong. I'm reminded of the beginning of "How to Win Friends and Influnce People" by Dale Carnegie. It spoke of a man who murdered a policeman when he asked to see his driver's license. He went through a trial and ended up in the electric chair. I think the point was the guy didn't say "This is what I get for killing someone" instead he said "This is what I get for…

The presence of the term "gaslighting" in the comment you are replying to implies that this might be a situation involving narcissism. It's all very well, in a pop psych way, to tell someone "be more zen", but there is little useful overlap between that advice and the course of action that is usually recommended for people dealing with a serious narcissist (to get away from them any way you can). I don't think you're…

Gaslighting doesn't necessarily imply narcissism - it applies any time someone persistently attacks another person's confidence in their own view of reality (starting with just contesting their recollections, moving on to actively messing with their environment).

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#36
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Document, and shut up. Document every time they say something false - time and date and medium, and exact words. Shut up: for each instance, say once that they're wrong, then don't argue. When it matters, when there's a decision where this person's view is threatening to sway matters in the wrong direction, go with a massive documentation dump - everything they've said on the subject, exact words and date and time an…

This is terrible advice. When you quit you no longer have a stake in the game. Say NOTHING beyond platitudes.

I no longer have a stake in the game, true. But there are a bunch of people there who deserve better than to have their work lives ruined by someone else's aggressive ignorance. Some of those people I might even regard as friends. Sure, I have nothing to gain for me. I don't tell the truth about why I left for me. I tell it so that it might help others.

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#39
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is terrible advice. When you quit you no longer have a stake in the game. Say NOTHING beyond platitudes.

Serious question: What actually goes wrong, in concrete terms, if you explain that you're leaving because you don't want to work with someone who is aggressively incompetent? I get that people won't like it, but how am I actually harmed by speaking the truth? I've heard a lot of wishy-washy answers about burning bridges, but I have trouble making myself believe that's enough reason to let someone continue fucking shi…

Slightly lower lifetime earnings? How would that happen?

It might happen if word ever got back to the aggressively incompetent one, and he (maybe it's a stereotype, but I'll assume male gender given the description of the behavior) was in some position of influence at a future job of yours. Well, people do change, sometimes even for the better, but I'd think twice before hiring at such a place in the future.

Or, managers believe him instead of you (or choose to keep him in place and blame you for the message that they didn't like), and those managers wind up at a future place. Same story - it's your cue to not work there.

If this burns you, it burns you at places you didn't want to work for anyway.

Note well: If it's a small job market, this may be a more costly action.

Re: We Are All Confident Idiots (2014)

#40
post #5

How do you work with an individual who _insists_ they understand how it all works? Even when faced with hard evidence that contradicts their assessments, I'm still told I don't understand or I misinterpreted their words - basically gas-lighting me. Arguing leaves me unmotivated and frustrated. Giving in is the wrong path. Going to others doesn't seem to move the needle. Help.

You basically go deeper.. the standard psychological way to do this is to listen and genuinely be interested and ask them to tell you more. Be curious about why they think what they do. Don't argue but seek an understanding of where they are coming from. Usually this forces them to think through their arguments. In the end they will hopefully see the incompetence of their position and probably adapt. This is not easy to do but if you ever have had a highly skilled manager you will see them do this in a group dynamic where there is conflict. It's basically magic.
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