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Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

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Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the story here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19834802 > They claimed it housed Hamas cyber operatives, which had been engaging in a cyberattack against Israel's "cyberspace." > "We were ahead of them all the time," said Brigadier General D., the head of the IDF's cyber defense division. "The moment they tried to do something, they failed." > Israeli officials did not disclose any details about the Hamas…

I’m generally pro Israel. But quite happy to criticise them when and where warranted on specific issues/incidents. In this case, it certainly sounds like a very serious and incongruent disconnect between the public affairs officer for Cyber and the actual kinetic response. The Israelis have always been pretty quick to kill or capture not only leadership, but technical talent. In this case, if I had to guess, there wa…

> But quite happy to criticise them when and where warranted on specific issues/incidents.

It rather seemed you came up with a rationalization for the deed just because it was done. Presented with facts, you don't skip a beat either.

> In this case, if I had to guess

That's the thing, you don't have to. So why do you? And what's with the weasel words like "kinetic action"? If someone mistook someone you loved for a threat and killed them, and someone else just said "oh yeah, they've always been quick to capture or kill people", and "this may be signalling that going forward people mistaken for threat are considered a valid target for physical removal", would you like that?

> Every powerful state relies on specialists whose task is to show that what the strong do is noble and just and, if the weak suffer, it is their fault. In the West, these specialists are called "intellectuals" and, with marginal exceptions, they fulfill their task with skill and self-righteousness, however outlandish the claims, in this practice that traces back to the origins of recorded history.

-- Noam Chomsky

When I said "start there", I meant start with the deed. Start with the principles, and if you would like them to be applied to you and people you love. There are things we cannot bless. We can support them, but that just degrades us, it doesn't enoble these things one bit.

> People who call themselves supporters of Israel are actually supporters of its moral degeneration and ultimate destruction.

-- Noam Chomsky

I rather consider Yeshayahu Leibowitz "pro Israel" -- in a sense of supporting the heart, body and soul, not just the body come what may -- just like I would have considered Sophie School "pro Germany", not "anti Germany". Principles, and applying them equally, and not having double standards, those are real, being pro this or that is just rhetoric.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#52

The official IDF Twitter account @IDF posted something rather distasteful about the attack: “CLEARED FOR RELEASE: We thwarted an attempted Hamas cyber offensive against Israeli targets. Following our successful cyber defensive operation, we targeted a building where the Hamas cyber operatives work. HamasCyberHQ.exe has been removed.” Counterproductive and narrative losing if you ask me.

This is distasteful only if you think of Hamas as worthy of receiving sympathy. They cut the throats of eight year old children. They fire hundreds of rockets at civilian areas. They keep their own population in dire poverty. They choose extreme religious goals over a better life for their people. I celebrate their destruction. The world is a better place without them.

Make no mistake, I ave zero sympathy for Hamas. Absolutely zero.

But the dark humour of the IDF’s tweet that I understand as a soldier, I find distasteful as a citizen as well as counterproductive in terms of influencing the unaligned bearing witness to it.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m generally pro Israel. But quite happy to criticise them when and where warranted on specific issues/incidents. In this case, it certainly sounds like a very serious and incongruent disconnect between the public affairs officer for Cyber and the actual kinetic response. The Israelis have always been pretty quick to kill or capture not only leadership, but technical talent. In this case, if I had to guess, there wa…

> But quite happy to criticise them when and where warranted on specific issues/incidents. It rather seemed you came up with a rationalization for the deed just because it was done. Presented with facts, you don't skip a beat either. > In this case, if I had to guess That's the thing, you don't have to. So why do you? And what's with the weasel words like "kinetic action"? If someone mistook someone you loved for a t…

I’m not rationalising what has happened.

I’m clinically describing it.

I don’t have skin in this particular “game” so I’m emotionally detached.

Feel free to change kinetic action to violence, death, or murder.

I’ve seen and experienced enough conflict up close and personal so I hope you don’t think my remarks are flippant.

It’s not my fight.

I’m simply describing what should be obvious extensions of violence by one group of humans directed at another, based on their behaviour in a new domain(digital).

Leveraging a new domain(digital) as a weapon(cyber/information operations) can expect to have weapons from across other domains(air land sea space) used to detect, deter, destroy them.

My posting doesn’t equate to agreeing with all of it.

But based on consistent human behaviour of one tribe towards another, isn’t shock in seeing it more than a bit naive?

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#54

Everyone seems to be missing an important point here, especially for HN users. Hackers and anyone supporting them are now live bomb targets. Hackers are no longer punished by just putting them in jail. Death is a punishment option too. In the past, they were collateral damage now they are a direct target.

In a case like this when you can’t go in and arrest someone who is attacking your country and lives are at stake, there’s not a lot of options besides dropping a bomb on them.

> there’s not a lot of options besides dropping a bomb on them.

There's nothing in the article that indicated that lives were at stake.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's my understanding that a hacking incident that principally contributes to injury/death can justify a kinetic response. Hacking incidents with kinetic effects are only rare outliers today, but that could change tomorrow. Kinetic deterrence & reprisal for hacking incidents is a legitimate option, but ripe for significant abuse if allowed without clear attribution of hack and/or link to related kinetic effects. Much…

From the story here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19834802 > They claimed it housed Hamas cyber operatives, which had been engaging in a cyberattack against Israel's "cyberspace." > "We were ahead of them all the time," said Brigadier General D., the head of the IDF's cyber defense division. "The moment they tried to do something, they failed." > Israeli officials did not disclose any details about the Hamas…

It's a sad thing that weaponized honeypots are likely something we'll be hearing about in the near future...

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But quite happy to criticise them when and where warranted on specific issues/incidents. It rather seemed you came up with a rationalization for the deed just because it was done. Presented with facts, you don't skip a beat either. > In this case, if I had to guess That's the thing, you don't have to. So why do you? And what's with the weasel words like "kinetic action"? If someone mistook someone you loved for a t…

I’m not rationalising what has happened. I’m clinically describing it. I don’t have skin in this particular “game” so I’m emotionally detached. Feel free to change kinetic action to violence, death, or murder. I’ve seen and experienced enough conflict up close and personal so I hope you don’t think my remarks are flippant. It’s not my fight. I’m simply describing what should be obvious extensions of violence by one g…

Fair enough, sorry for reading it as flippant, which I kinda did.

> But based on consistent human behaviour of one tribe towards another, isn’t shock in seeing it more than a bit naive?

I'm not expressing shock. I'm expressing anger and the refusal to normalize this.

It's not like Hamas and IDF enjoy the exact equal respect in (the polite companty of) the Western world. I can mention Leibowitz, and nobody in their right mind would attempt to smear the man; but quoting him would be different, and saying it in my own words ouldn't go over smoothly at all. Netanyahu goes around talking about how the Palestinian Mufti gave Hitler the idea to kill Jews instead of just re-settle them, a German protester holds up a sign just quoting Netanyahu, and gets arrested. It's been an unadulterated shitshow for a long, long time, and it seems that as a German citizen, I can't claim neutrality, the actions and flowery words of my government make that impossible. That goes tenfold for US citizens. That ship has sailed in my books. So the least I can and must do do is say "not in my name".

Also, Israel isn't a monolith, Palestine isn't a monolith. Individual actions and reasons for them are on a wide spectrum, and are culpable for what they do. There's warmongers on all sorts of "sides", and they use each other to justify each other. It's not human behaviour, it's corporate behaviour for lack of a better word. People do and justify things in groups they cannot justify as individuals. For me the dividing line is not between various tribes or nations, but human individuals on one hand, and any and all "tribes" (that rise to the rank of nationalistic, jingoist delusion and express themselves in murder) on the other. Maybe that stuff was good for something 50k years ago, but we kind of have to decide if we want our technology, or that. Insisting to keep both together might just mean we won't have either.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#57
post #33

Everyone seems to be missing an important point here, especially for HN users. Hackers and anyone supporting them are now live bomb targets. Hackers are no longer punished by just putting them in jail. Death is a punishment option too. In the past, they were collateral damage now they are a direct target.

If you treat it as a war, was it really any different? SIGINT is generally considered legitimate military targets. So if you're explicitly hacking on behalf of one of the parties in the conflict, and especially if you're hacking military targets, why shouldn't you be considered a combatant? It's interesting that the tweet in this article makes this point: > this is the equivalent of saying blowing up drone pilots at…

>If you treat it as a war, was it really any different?

It's a huge difference. It's a game changer. The rule has been to respond in kind. In the past cyber attacks were responded with cyber attacks. Now a bomb will be dropped on the attackers. Hackers haven't gone into war thinking they are direct targets. That's changed now. Of course, that means that the targets will get better defenses but don't expect to be a supporting player and be treated as such.

At some level, it's a recognition of how much of modern society is managed in cyberspace and how much damage can be done with a cyber attack.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#58
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you treat it as a war, was it really any different? SIGINT is generally considered legitimate military targets. So if you're explicitly hacking on behalf of one of the parties in the conflict, and especially if you're hacking military targets, why shouldn't you be considered a combatant? It's interesting that the tweet in this article makes this point: > this is the equivalent of saying blowing up drone pilots at…

>If you treat it as a war, was it really any different? It's a huge difference. It's a game changer. The rule has been to respond in kind. In the past cyber attacks were responded with cyber attacks. Now a bomb will be dropped on the attackers. Hackers haven't gone into war thinking they are direct targets. That's changed now. Of course, that means that the targets will get better defenses but don't expect to be a su…

I don't think there was ever an "in kind" rule that is that narrow. I remember back in 1999 during the Kosovo war, NATO bombed the Yugoslavian Ministry of Defense, for example - and it was generally considered a legitimate target, even though the people inside weren't directly shooting at anybody.

I think the broader context is important here. A cyber attack by itself does not justify this sort of response. But a cyber attack that is intended to bolster one side in a military conflict, carried out by people explicitly aligned with that side, is a part of the broader war effort. Responding to that with deadly force is still responding "in kind".

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#59
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is such a long and convoluted conflict... israel withdrew from gaza in 2005, but kept control of access points, air travel etc making gaza a weird place, partly under israel control. hamas (basically a terrorist org) literally took over gaza from fatah (a nationalist party) in a war in 2007. then you’ve got the islamic jihadis, a bonafide terror org, which started taking over from hamas, in the same gaza strip.…

> israel withdrew from gaza in 2005, but kept control of access points Why does Egypt blockade Gaza on their side? (serious q)

terrorism? gaza is a breeding ground...
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