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A military exercise staged 35 years ago almost triggered World War Three

bbc.com

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Re: A military exercise staged 35 years ago almost triggered World War Three

#51

Post by sacado2 »

SCHiM wrote: post #38
sacado2 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you've been downvoted there. Regarding Syria, the same thing happened as with Iraq. In Iraq, the US and UK said "Saddam has mass destruction weapons, we must attack him", and the French said "okay, just show us the proof, and we'll be on your side". USA said they had a proof but didn't want to show it. France did not support the attack. In Syria, USA, UK and France said "Bachar use chemical weapons on hi…

How do you mean no proof? There's numerous reports by impartial agencies documenting the use of chemical weapons since early 2014. There is no failure to provide evidence, only the usual conflicts.

I'm talking about the 7th of april to 16th of april, between the moment an attack happened and France/US/UK decided to attack because they had proof Assad was the author of this precise attack. If you could point me to one of these reports, I'd be grateful.

Re: A military exercise staged 35 years ago almost triggered World War Three

#52

Post by sacado2 »

opless wrote: post #50
sacado2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Khaddaffi (not sure about spelling) was a friend of France just a few years before he got killed. He was even invited to put his tent in the gardens of the Élysée by newly elected president Sarkozy, four years before. And back then, Khaddaffi was not especially a benevolent dictator. And there are tons of counter examples. For example, Eritrea is recognized as one of the worst dictatorship in the world, and we have n…

He did weed out people he considered his enemies, but he did give people free education, a banking system that was more client friendly (in terms of loans etc) and I understand free utilities. I was of the understanding that the invasion was to increase France's political clout in North Africa, to avoid Ghaddafi's plan of unifying Africa under a gold standard (Gold Dinar) and most importantly to sell oil under the af…

I was of the same understanding, but this is pure speculation, obviously.

Re: A military exercise staged 35 years ago almost triggered World War Three

#53

Post by sacado2 »

mousecorkkey wrote: post #49
sacado2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Khaddaffi (not sure about spelling) was a friend of France just a few years before he got killed. He was even invited to put his tent in the gardens of the Élysée by newly elected president Sarkozy, four years before. And back then, Khaddaffi was not especially a benevolent dictator. And there are tons of counter examples. For example, Eritrea is recognized as one of the worst dictatorship in the world, and we have n…

Are you referring to Gaddafi?

Yep, we call him Kadhafi in French (and this time I checked the spelling).

Re: A military exercise staged 35 years ago almost triggered World War Three

#54

Post by varjag »

sacado2 wrote: post #45
varjag wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OPCW has provided the proof of multiple incidents perpetrated by Syrian government. That you decide to support Assad is a matter of conscience, not absence of facts.

First, let's not call each other names. I certaninly don't support Assad, just as the fact you (or I) don't support Assad certainly doesn't mean you (or I) support ISIS. Our ennemies' ennemies are not always our friends. Now, I just reported the fact that France said back then "we have evidence", but didn't show it at that time. Then they published an official report [1] a few days later, basically saying "oh, we hav…

OPCW reports are publicly available, all detail is there. Ignoring those to provide leeway for murderers means supporting them.

https://www.securitycouncilreport.org/wp-content/uploads/s_2...

Re: A military exercise staged 35 years ago almost triggered World War Three

#55

Post by varjag »

lmm wrote: post #46
adventured wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France had no problem supporting the conflicts in Libya and Syria that sought to accomplish similar outcomes as in Iraq (remove & replace Gaddafi and al-Assad). In fact, France has routinely urged Trump and the US to remain engaged in the Syria conflict. "Emmanuel Macron to urge Donald Trump to keep US in Syria during White House talks" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/23/emmanuel-macron-...

> France had no problem supporting the conflicts in Libya and Syria that sought to accomplish similar outcomes as in Iraq (remove & replace Gaddafi and al-Assad). And if the US had argued for invading Iraq on that basis, maybe we'd've supported it. But of course we're going to oppose an invasion when its proponents are basing their arguments on a blatant lie like the 45 minute claim. (If the US/UK thought there was a…

Indeed, if we look back France committed 18,000 troops for the first Gulf War that was widely considered a just cause. Similarly most of the NATO allies supported the USA in Afghanistan.

But that going into a war on a false pretext is morally corrupt, and fortunately most Western governments were above that.

Re: A military exercise staged 35 years ago almost triggered World War Three

#56

Post by sacado2 »

varjag wrote: post #54
sacado2 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, let's not call each other names. I certaninly don't support Assad, just as the fact you (or I) don't support Assad certainly doesn't mean you (or I) support ISIS. Our ennemies' ennemies are not always our friends. Now, I just reported the fact that France said back then "we have evidence", but didn't show it at that time. Then they published an official report [1] a few days later, basically saying "oh, we hav…

OPCW reports are publicly available, all detail is there. Ignoring those to provide leeway for murderers means supporting them. https://www.securitycouncilreport.org/wp-content/uploads/s_2...

Thanks a lot, I'll have to read that. It's from 2017, though, I was especially talking about what happened in April 2018 in the great-grandparent-or-something post.

Re: A military exercise staged 35 years ago almost triggered World War Three

#57

Post by mcv »

michaelt wrote: post #13

But because their masters in Moscow wanted to hear there was potential for a first-strike, to please their bosses, that’s what the spies delivered. “These people were close to the West, they lived in the West and knew there were no plans for a first strike but they reported what they were told to report,” Jones explains. [...] It was a dangerously vicious circle. “It’s a failure of the Soviet system,” says Jones, “So…

It's most definitely a bug. If you want a reliable government, you need reliable intelligence that does not fabricate excuses for war.

Government is not about serving the politicians, it's about serving the people.

Re: A military exercise staged 35 years ago almost triggered World War Three

#58

Post by ben_w »

mousecorkkey wrote: post #49
sacado2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Khaddaffi (not sure about spelling) was a friend of France just a few years before he got killed. He was even invited to put his tent in the gardens of the Élysée by newly elected president Sarkozy, four years before. And back then, Khaddaffi was not especially a benevolent dictator. And there are tons of counter examples. For example, Eritrea is recognized as one of the worst dictatorship in the world, and we have n…

Are you referring to Gaddafi?

Given his name isn’t really written in the Latin alphabet (“معمر محمد أبو منيار القذافي”, according to Wikipedia), all these variations are equally [in]correct.

Re: A military exercise staged 35 years ago almost triggered World War Three

#59

Post by ben_w »

mockingbirdy wrote: post #36
adventured wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a couple dozen vile governments all over the world doing terrible things to their people at any given time. That alone doesn't explain why France is so aggressively interested in keeping the US in the Syria conflict. That same exact justification that you just mentioned applied equally to Iraq, Saddam had massacred and brutalized his own people for a long time. You don't see France egging on the US to get m…

It's about the refugees. Many EU countries lack basic decency and risk to destroy EU because of Syrian refugees. Solving the crisis there is indirectly one of the interests of the EU. The current situation also strengthens the position of Russia in the Middle East which is not in European interest. Disclaimer: I'm from Germany. We have a shift to the right in most EU countries. One of the reasons the Britains left th…

The countries most upset by refugees, are those who have the least. This has also been the case in the UK (communities who hate immigrants and want less don’t have any) and from what I’ve seen of German voting patterns in recent elections.

The fear of them has been amplified, but I don’t believe the actual refugees are the problem.

And, in case you’re wondering about me mixing up refugees and migrants, part of the problem in the UK is that angry people can’t tell them apart, so I don’t actually know which they’re really objecting to.

Re: A military exercise staged 35 years ago almost triggered World War Three

#60

Post by RobertoG »

varjag wrote: post #54
sacado2 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, let's not call each other names. I certaninly don't support Assad, just as the fact you (or I) don't support Assad certainly doesn't mean you (or I) support ISIS. Our ennemies' ennemies are not always our friends. Now, I just reported the fact that France said back then "we have evidence", but didn't show it at that time. Then they published an official report [1] a few days later, basically saying "oh, we hav…

OPCW reports are publicly available, all detail is there. Ignoring those to provide leeway for murderers means supporting them. https://www.securitycouncilreport.org/wp-content/uploads/s_2...

I wanted to know what happened so I read the report.

I have to say that the "details" are scarce in the report. The investigator not even went to place where the attack happened (because of the danger).

The conclusions are also interesting, because they accuse ISIL, and not Assad. While sometimes ISIL and Assad have shared interests in the ongoing war, that doesn't mean they are the same. After all, we have seen some USA/Iran cooperation in the area too.

So, I find your accusation to the grandparent of "provide leeway for murderers " when he is just saying that the facts are not clear dishonest.

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