Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle • Hacker News Board

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#51

Post by sjwright » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 4:03 PM UTC

lrei wrote: post #33

saosebastiao wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GM maybe. Mercedes definitely not. Unlike almost all automakers, Mercedes has consistently embraced change. Their entire premise is to build a car that is 10 years into the future, and generally speaking they do it. Sometimes they mispredict the future, but they have never been afraid to correct course. A different type of drivetrain doesn't mean starting from scratch. It's a major component, but it would be foolish…

I have plenty of experience with Mercedes, Audi, volvo, jeep and BMW cars - driving, renting, test driving them or being the passanger. I would say Mercedes is at least 5 years behind the competition at approx same price point. Disclaimer: I'm obviously not qualified to talk about suspension technology, combustion engines etc. But tech (e.g pilot assist/autopilot), Driver interface features and multimedia, yeah Merce…

Most car manufacturers are 5-10 years behind in terms of deep technology and software. In recent years a few manufacturers have done a passable job papering over their legacy interfaces with modern designs and faster GPUs, but they're still buggy junk behind the scenes. And if that weren't bad enough, most of it is – from the end user's perspective – abandonware.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#52

Post by CPLX » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 4:09 PM UTC

_ea1k wrote: post #45

ams6110 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not call it a 180. Maybe more like a right turn, if even that much. All their sheet metal stamping (or carbon fiber fabrication), chassis-making, interior manufacturing, paint, as well as parts suppliers for all that, glass, brakes, tires, wheels, etc. can be directly used. They just need to change the drivetrain. Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well establi…

> Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well established. Yes, but it is all built around selling the ICE as the ultimate driving machine. To compete with Tesla, the entire marketing machine will have to be reworked in such a way as to imply that their previous flagships are now legacy. That is a bitter pill and will face much internal political resistance, regardless of…

> Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well established.

>> Yes, but it is all built around selling the ICE as the ultimate driving machine.

That... doesn't really make any sense. A Tesla and a Mercedes are literally indistiguishable from each other on the basis of their powertrain. They both look the same and have the same function and work the same.

If I modified a Tesla to ICE and it was your next Uber ride you would not really be able to tell the difference unless you were closely paying attention, and vice versa. Yes there are some performance differences and sound differences, sort of, but from a functional perspective they're both just luxury cars, outside of refueling the user experience is exactly the same.

Sure, it's an engineering challenge, but the idea that the dealer network and marketing don't apply equally well to electric cars is totally unsupported. In fact, the luxury car marketing experience is so similar across the board that you just used the BMW slogan to describe Mercedes Benz.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#53

Post by amai » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 4:13 PM UTC

"The start of that collaboration was during the 2008-2009 financial crisis and Tesla, like most other US automakers at the time, needed money. Musk, along with several other investors, reinvested in the company but Daimler’s cash infusion made the difference. Musk later said that “Tesla wouldn’t exist today without it.”"

Mercedes is like Microsoft, when they helped Apple to survive.

https://electrek.co/2017/03/24/tesla-electric-car-granola-im...

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#54

Post by S_A_P » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

WorldMaker wrote: post #37

S_A_P wrote: post #25

I said this statement in the MB electrification article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15219469 Electric cars need a battery tech that offers a "refuel experience" if they want to change the game. Ive seen things like solid battery tech that may offer something close to this. Im not anywhere near an expert on battery tech, but I can say as a car guy that mainstream adoption hinges on this. Once this battery tec…

Chargers are already described by Levels: Level 1 is wall-outlet 120, Level 2 is "dryer outlet" 240, Level 3+ is "super-charger"/CHaDeMO. Most car displays show estimated charging times for each level in one way or another. "Refuel experience" is a red herring at best. Partly because the ubiquity of the electric grid means that you can charge anywhere: that's the subtle game changer that doesn't always come across wh…

Thanks for clarifying the charge levels.

I do, however disagree on the refuel experience mainly because while it is true, that you can constantly refuel your car while it is parked at home, the long distance driving use case is exactly where electric recharging is least developed. I think that there is a certain level of comfort knowing that, in the US at least there are only a handful of places in the country where a stretch > 20 miles exists without the ability to refuel. For the most part I think most people active on HN are many times more willing to switch to electric cars. The average person on the street may not be so willing.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#55

Post by BoorishBears » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

drewg123 wrote: post #29

TL;DR "Its the charging, stupid" Until they have a fast charging option like Tesla's, then all the other auto makers will be "also rans" in my opinion. Case in point: The Chevy Bolt is, on paper, a Tesla Model 3 killer. It is cheaper, has better range, and it is available now. However, there is no way to charge it on a road trip (unless you're a masochist, and want to depend on flaky 3rd party charging networks where…

The Bolt has DC fast charging (90 miles in 30 minutes was the tagline, but it's more complicated than that because of charging curves)

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#56

Post by usrusr » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 4:47 PM UTC

petra wrote: post #34

drewg123 wrote: post #29

TL;DR "Its the charging, stupid" Until they have a fast charging option like Tesla's, then all the other auto makers will be "also rans" in my opinion. Case in point: The Chevy Bolt is, on paper, a Tesla Model 3 killer. It is cheaper, has better range, and it is available now. However, there is no way to charge it on a road trip (unless you're a masochist, and want to depend on flaky 3rd party charging networks where…

So what's the end game for Tesla ? owning the best charging network with large network effects, and getting high margins?

Why not? If they stay the only "charger network included, that's why we are so much more expensive up front" offering, they will naturally glide into the Apple niche: high prices that inevitably communicate status, but with a perfectly valid "excuse" for those who don't want to appear like status-buyers. There are worse fates for a company/brand. Failing this, they could still thrive as the dominant charging network if they open that up. Might even work in parallel, opening the network but keeping a minimum number of spots reserved for brand cars at all sites, at all times.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#57

Post by WorldMaker » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 5:24 PM UTC

saosebastiao wrote: post #46

WorldMaker wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GM has had skin in the electric car game for decades (although a flop, the EV1 was still a try). They've sold a healthy number of Volts, Sparks, Cadillac ELRs, and now Bolts. Whether or not you are correct in supposing Mercedes can embrace the change, using GM as a counter-example is a bad analogy because from the GM perspective it is Mercedes that needs to catch up. That said, I'm not expecting GM to set an aggressi…

Every electric car that GM has ever produced has been the result of playing national politics. The volt was announced right around the time that bailouts and cash 4 clunkers were political talking points...it was a way to show congress that they really needed to intervene to keep GM alive. The EV1 was the result of CARB regulations that required the big 7 to have zero-emission vehicles compose at least 2% of their fl…

The Volt was in development quite prior to the bailout. The Volt was developed for selfish reasons by an executive to leave an electric legacy behind, not to curry favor with the American polity. Revenge of the Electric Car is a good documentary with first person glimpses into the Volt development/launch (as well as the launch of the Tesla Roadster and the development of the Nissan Leaf).

GM branding seems to want to continue to imply that their electric vehicles are better than their "mainstream models"; showboating is marketing. GM has also said (per the link above) that they expect to have the first "mainstream" electric in the ways the car industry would define it (high volume, reasonable profits). GM isn't just now responding to "market demands" because they anticipated them years ago, and in some ways have been working to create those market demands that Mercedes and VW are just now feeling.

VW, on the other hand, also is responding to the American polity. The US has graciously allowed VW to use the fines the EPA should have charged for "dieselgate" to instead go (and only go) to electric vehicle development.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#58

Post by drewg123 » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 5:41 PM UTC

BoorishBears wrote: post #55

drewg123 wrote: post #29

TL;DR "Its the charging, stupid" Until they have a fast charging option like Tesla's, then all the other auto makers will be "also rans" in my opinion. Case in point: The Chevy Bolt is, on paper, a Tesla Model 3 killer. It is cheaper, has better range, and it is available now. However, there is no way to charge it on a road trip (unless you're a masochist, and want to depend on flaky 3rd party charging networks where…

The Bolt has DC fast charging (90 miles in 30 minutes was the tagline, but it's more complicated than that because of charging curves)

Sure.. good luck finding a fast DC charger that works when you're on a trip.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#59

Post by BoorishBears » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 5:51 PM UTC

drewg123 wrote: post #58

BoorishBears wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Bolt has DC fast charging (90 miles in 30 minutes was the tagline, but it's more complicated than that because of charging curves)

Sure.. good luck finding a fast DC charger that works when you're on a trip.

Tesla isn't immune from that problem, charger degradation has been affecting the supercharger network for a while now.

To me, when EVs are ready for mainstream use, the charging infrastructure will be there. I got a Volt because unless tying yourself to a supercharger is an option, or you own your home and can install an L2 charger, the infrastructure isn't yet where it needs to be for mainstream adoption

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#60

Post by _ea1k » Tue, Sep 12, 2017, 6:37 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #52

_ea1k wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well established. Yes, but it is all built around selling the ICE as the ultimate driving machine. To compete with Tesla, the entire marketing machine will have to be reworked in such a way as to imply that their previous flagships are now legacy. That is a bitter pill and will face much internal political resistance, regardless of…

> Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well established. >> Yes, but it is all built around selling the ICE as the ultimate driving machine. That... doesn't really make any sense. A Tesla and a Mercedes are literally indistiguishable from each other on the basis of their powertrain. They both look the same and have the same function and work the same. If I modified a Tes…

My use of the BMW slogan was intentional, because that is absolutely true that the marketing messaging between most luxury brands is incredibly similar (though differences exist that are relevant in ways that are interesting to some).

If you modified a P100D to use a Mercedes drivetrain, the car would feel slower and would launch like an ICE car. The feeling of initial acceleration in an all-electric performance car like the P100D is vastly different. Maybe you wouldn't notice from the backseat of a taxi, but that isn't really the point in selling a performance car. :)

But even that doesn't really matter as much as you might think. I think the fundamental issue is that you appear to be using engineer thinking and are thinking about the situation from a purely logical framework. Buyers in the real world don't behave that way and the romance copy and image that a company sells really does matter in the marketplace.