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Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

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Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#21

Post by njarboe »

ams6110 wrote: post #4
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

I would not call it a 180. Maybe more like a right turn, if even that much. All their sheet metal stamping (or carbon fiber fabrication), chassis-making, interior manufacturing, paint, as well as parts suppliers for all that, glass, brakes, tires, wheels, etc. can be directly used. They just need to change the drivetrain. Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well establi…

The problem is that the drive-train is what car companies see as their "core competency" and have focused their energy and talents on doing that and out-sourcing the rest. Maybe they can make switch to "car making factories" as the core competency (Elon Musk says Tesla is focusing on "making the machine that makes the machine"). Not a huge switch, but those top engineers, passionate car guys at Mercedes, might not be as interested or as capable as factory automation engineers.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#22

Post by madisfun »

xutopia wrote: post #6

I don't think people realize just how much Musk is laughing at all this. He gave away many electric car patents because he knew he would profit from it so long as he has the best battery factory in the world. As it stands Tesla owns the building, the factory and rents some of it out to Panasonic. Unless Mercedes finds a cheaper battery elsewhere they're going to be paying Tesla for these.

> they're going to be paying Tesla for these

Consumers are going to be paying for these, no matter the supplier. I don't see why Daimler wouldn't be buying components from Tesla, _if Tesla can supply them_. So far the "Gigafactory" is just not big enough for Mercedes (2,200,000 vehicles/year).

https://www.daimler.com/company/business-units/mercedes-benz...

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#23

Post by monkmartinez »

njarboe wrote: post #21
ams6110 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not call it a 180. Maybe more like a right turn, if even that much. All their sheet metal stamping (or carbon fiber fabrication), chassis-making, interior manufacturing, paint, as well as parts suppliers for all that, glass, brakes, tires, wheels, etc. can be directly used. They just need to change the drivetrain. Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well establi…

The problem is that the drive-train is what car companies see as their "core competency" and have focused their energy and talents on doing that and out-sourcing the rest. Maybe they can make switch to "car making factories" as the core competency (Elon Musk says Tesla is focusing on "making the machine that makes the machine"). Not a huge switch, but those top engineers, passionate car guys at Mercedes, might not be…

Do you really think so? In my mind it doesn't matter that part manufacture is outsourced. I don't think design has been outsourced and if it has, they just give them new specs/targets to meet.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#24

Post by vvanders »

CPLX wrote: post #8
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

That's a theory, but it's not sufficiently convincing to take on faith. There are a lot of different kind of expertise and capacity necessary to create a great car, from styling or marketing and sales, to interiors, seats, tires, and so on, that have nothing to do with the difference between a gas and electric means of powering the vehicle. At a casual glance it appears that the real genuinely thorny problem with EV…

Take a look into the EV1, it played out exactly that way with GM.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#25

Post by S_A_P »

I said this statement in the MB electrification article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15219469

Electric cars need a battery tech that offers a "refuel experience" if they want to change the game. Ive seen things like solid battery tech that may offer something close to this. Im not anywhere near an expert on battery tech, but I can say as a car guy that mainstream adoption hinges on this. Once this battery tech exists, then there is the infrastructure problem of charging stations. Musk has started the process, but there is a very long way to go. We also should start thinking about standardizing or at least categorizing charging levels in an ELI5 way to the average user. Maybe this already exists, but I dont think so. It seems like you need to have something like: Level 1 charge(cheaper, lower power throughput, longer wait time). Level 2 charge(quicker charge more expensive). Level 3 charge(fastest, most expensive, if your car supports it, etc)

that would roughly equate to the 3 options you have at a gas station and ease the adjustment to the differences. Maybe Im saying things that people already know, but I just see this as the barrier to adoption right now.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#27

Post by adventured »

ckastner wrote: post #3

Previous discussion of Mercedes' announcement: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15219469 However, what surprised me in this article is the following: > VW has earmarked 50 billion euros for batteries for its electric cars That's more than Tesla's current market cap. Edit: Seems I missed the article on the front page, as the latter is also being discussed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15224578

> VW has earmarked 50 billion euros for batteries for its electric cars

That's a meaningless number without the context of how many years it's spread across - which is of course the vaporware point of the statement from VW, it's about grabbing a headline (hey look, we're doing X thing too, we're not the next Nokia, really!). Tesla might as well issue a press release that says they plan to spend $200 billion on batteries (over 20-30 years, but you know, leave that part out).

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#28

Post by hacknat »

njarboe wrote: post #21
ams6110 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not call it a 180. Maybe more like a right turn, if even that much. All their sheet metal stamping (or carbon fiber fabrication), chassis-making, interior manufacturing, paint, as well as parts suppliers for all that, glass, brakes, tires, wheels, etc. can be directly used. They just need to change the drivetrain. Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well establi…

The problem is that the drive-train is what car companies see as their "core competency" and have focused their energy and talents on doing that and out-sourcing the rest. Maybe they can make switch to "car making factories" as the core competency (Elon Musk says Tesla is focusing on "making the machine that makes the machine"). Not a huge switch, but those top engineers, passionate car guys at Mercedes, might not be…

This is false, there are probably something like 500 engineers within Mercedes that specialize in engineering the internal combustion and drive train, and most of them work in at Mercedes AMG, which will never go away for the sheer marketing it brings.

I think the grand-parent comment is vastly overestimating how much of the car business these days is based on tuning the internal combustion engine, which for the most part has seen about all of the advances it is going to see. The rock stars of the car world are now the process and manufacturing guys (and possibly the software guys, though not as much as you'd hope or expect), who still have the power to squeeze the margins tighter than any other engineering division does, and provide more competitive advantage than any other engineering division does.

rant Electric motors are commodity items that can easily be thrown onto most chassis. Why does Elon Musk always make such a big deal about not having patents? Mostly because he doesn't have any sexy patents to trot out anyways so its good PR fluff. end rant

I think Tesla can survive and thrive, and break the 100 year drought in new car companies, but I think it's a mistake to think that's because they are going to out maneuver car companies at the car game, it's because they are becoming battery experts that they'll win. Tesla is a battery company with a car division.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#29

Post by drewg123 »

TL;DR "Its the charging, stupid"

Until they have a fast charging option like Tesla's, then all the other auto makers will be "also rans" in my opinion. Case in point: The Chevy Bolt is, on paper, a Tesla Model 3 killer. It is cheaper, has better range, and it is available now. However, there is no way to charge it on a road trip (unless you're a masochist, and want to depend on flaky 3rd party charging networks where the chargers might not work, or might charge slowly). So, because of this, Chevy can't unload the cars, and have so much inventory built up that they've idled the Bolt production line.

And don't say "fast charging is only important for road trips." One of the barriers holding back EV adoption in cities is the lack of charging options for apartment and condo dwellers. At home charging mostly depends on having a garage that you own, and that you can have a charger or 40A outlet installed in. Good luck getting a landlord to do that, and if you have street parking, you're totally hosed. Tesla recognized this, and is now opening Superchargers in urban areas in advance of the model 3 being generally available.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#30

Post by lazyjones »

ckastner wrote: post #3

Previous discussion of Mercedes' announcement: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15219469 However, what surprised me in this article is the following: > VW has earmarked 50 billion euros for batteries for its electric cars That's more than Tesla's current market cap. Edit: Seems I missed the article on the front page, as the latter is also being discussed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15224578

>However, what surprised me in this article is the following: >> VW has earmarked 50 billion euros for batteries for its electric cars

You have to take these announcements with a grain of salt and in the light of China's announcement. The big car makers who have been criticised for being late to the party, are making these claims now mainly to prevent sliding share prices as investors begin to draw conclusions.

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