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More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

theguardian.com

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Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#491

Post by dialup_sounds »

sneak wrote: post #490
dialup_sounds wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would Apple want to add E2EE to iCloud Photos without CSAM detection?

The same reason they made iMessage e2ee, which happened many years before CSAM detection was even a thing. User privacy. Almost nobody trades in CSAM, but everyone deserves privacy. Honestly, this isn’t about CSAM at all. It’s about government surveillance. If strong crypto e2ee is the hundreds-of-millions-of-citizens device default, and there is no backdoor, the feds will be upset with Apple. This is why iCloud Back…

I didn't ask why they would want E2EE. I asked why they would want E2EE without CSAM detection when they literally developed a method to have both. It's entirely reasonable to want privacy for your users AND not want CSAM on your servers.

> Honestly, this isn't about CSAM at all.

It literally is the only thing the technology is any good for.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#492

Post by h_tbob »

narrator wrote: post #66
nappy-doo wrote: post #4

I worked at FB for almost 2 years. (I left as soon as I could, I knew it wasn't a good fit for me.) I had an Uber from the campus one day, and my driver, a twenty-something girl, was asking how to become a moderator. I told her, "no amount of money would be enough for me to do that job. Don't do it." I don't know if she eventually got the job, but I hope she didn't.

Yes, these jobs are horrible. However, I do know from accidently encountering bad stuff on the internet that you want to be as far away from a modern battlefield as possible. It's just kind of ridiculous how people think war is like Call of Duty. One minute you're sitting in a trench, the next you're a pile of undifferentiated blood and guts. Same goes for car accidents and stuff. People really underestimate how frag…

I concluded that we really should have the speed limit at 45mph on highways. Then one body dying on the road would be so rare it would be newsworthy.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#493

Post by BehindBlueEyes »

itake wrote: post #458
sangnoir wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if this becomes a specialized, remote job where one tele-operates the brain and blood scrubbing robot all workday long, accident, after accident after accident. I am sure they'd get PTSD too, airey, sometime it's just oil and coolant, but there's still a lot of body-tissue involved.

I'd really like to see more data on this. I really think (most) people would be desensitized and not become hyper sensitive to this content. Another fascet to this is the moderators willfully agreed to review this content and had full autonomy to leave the job at any point.

I'm sure they consented to taking the job but is it informed consent? Can you really know what you will be exposed to? And unless unemployment insurance is given to quitters, autonomy to leave a job at any point is overestimated... Sure you can decide if you want to leave but how long it takes may not be in everyone's control if they first need to find another job.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#494

Post by BehindBlueEyes »

Nasrudith wrote: post #447
yodsanklai wrote: post #215

I'm wondering if there are precedents in other domains. There are other jobs where you do see disturbing things as part of your duty. E.g. doctors, cops, first responders, prison guards and so on... What makes moderation different? and how should it be handled so that it reduces harm and risks? surely banning social media or not moderating content aren't options. AI helps to some extent but doesn't solve the issue en…

I suspect what makes it different is the concentration to just the flagged is what turns it into especially traumatizing. Of course there is probably a bell curve of sorts for "experiences" vs "level of personal trauma". One incident might be enough for someone "weaker" to develop PTSD. Not a slight on the afflicted, just how things are. Casual Facebook viewers may stumble across something disturbing on it, but they…

Is it even 5% of revenue? Curious where you got that number because it seems unbelievably high

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#495

Post by BehindBlueEyes »

azinman2 wrote: post #399
abdullahkhalids wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some products have factories in multiple countries. For example, Teslas are produced in both US and China. The cars produced in both countries are more or less identical in quality. But do you ever see that the market price of the product is different depending on the country of manufacture? If the moderators in Kenya are providing the same quality labor as those from the US, why the difference in price of their labo…

A million things factor into market dynamics. I don’t know why this is such a shocking or foreign concept. Why is a waitress in Alabama paid less than in San Francisco for the same work? It’s a silly question because the answers are both obvious and complex.

The obvious answer being that corporations want to maximize profit from cheaper labor by extracting the same value at the lowest possible cost? Just because location has historically been the determining factor doesn't mean it has to continue this way though. I don't know why it is such a shocking or foreign concept that people would prefer to be paid according to the value they produce.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#496

Post by DirkH »

BehindBlueEyes wrote: post #483
Shorel wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Becoming aware of this is super damaging to our concept of normal life. Not being aware of this is also a cause of traffic accidents. People should be more careful driving.

You can be aware without having to see the most gruesome parts of it to a point where it is traumatizing and damaging. I've seen the crumpled metal of a car, I don't need to see the people inside to know it is not good.

I disagree. Or at least I do for myself. It is the same reason studying physics theory alone is sometimes not enough to "get it". Often to really learn something you need the dirty real-life demo.

You don't have to excessively see hours upon hours of such footage.

But a single harsh and gruesome traffic death footage sure as hell made me more careful in traffic. No amount of crumpled car metal was going to properly internalize in me how sudden and unexpected death can be and how fragile life really is.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#497

Post by noduerme »

keybored wrote: post #464
bowsamic wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t really know what you’re talking about, sorry. This is coming off as incoherent rambling to me

My comment was saying that this part was about ending suffering, not about wishing ill-will. I don’t understand what’s unclear. > > Reality is actually bad, and it should be far more intuitive to folks. The fact that positive experience is felt "quickly" and negative experience is felt "slowly" was all the evidence I needed that I wouldn't just press the "instantly and painlessly and without warning destroy reality"…

I've read this whole thread twice and I'm struggling to understand what you're saying. Are you saying that if all life is suffering then ending all life is morally permissible? In that case, what do you do with the life of someone who says they're not suffering?

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#498

Post by z3ncyberpunk »

chimeracoder wrote: post #139
HenryBemis wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't mention the year(s), but I recently listened to Jordan Peterson's podcast episode 503. One Woman’s War on P*rnhub | Laila Mickelwait. I will go ahead and assume that on the wild/carefree time of PornHub, when anyone could be able to upload anything and everything, from what that lady said, the numbers of pedophilia videos, bestiality, etc. was rampant.

> You don't mention the year(s), but I recently listened to Jordan Peterson's podcast episode 503. One Woman’s War on P*rnhub | Laila Mickelwait. Laila Mickelwait is a director at Exodus Cry, formerly known as Morality in Media (yes, that's their original name). Exodus Cry/Morality in Media is an explicitly Christian organization that openly seeks to outlaw all forms of pornography, in addition to outlawing abortion…

Don't believe this for a second. She went on PBD with a binder full of receipts detailing how terrible PH moderation is and how blatantly they skirt regulations, laws, and morality for sheer greed.

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#499

Post by keybored »

noduerme wrote: post #497
keybored wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment was saying that this part was about ending suffering, not about wishing ill-will. I don’t understand what’s unclear. > > Reality is actually bad, and it should be far more intuitive to folks. The fact that positive experience is felt "quickly" and negative experience is felt "slowly" was all the evidence I needed that I wouldn't just press the "instantly and painlessly and without warning destroy reality"…

I've read this whole thread twice and I'm struggling to understand what you're saying. Are you saying that if all life is suffering then ending all life is morally permissible? In that case, what do you do with the life of someone who says they're not suffering?

> I've read this whole thread twice and I'm struggling to understand what you're saying.

Join the club apparently. How nice.

> Are you saying that if all life is suffering then ending all life is morally permissible?

Yes. To demonstrate that the original, maligned comment wasn’t about ending all life because they hate life and existence. But in order to minimize suffering.

The premise is wrong from a Vedic perspective because it denies Moksha. But if you believe that Moksha doesn’t exist? Then it’s rational.

And the push-button argument will depend on what your stance on utilitarianism is. Specifically how you can make the choice for every life in existence (instead of them making it). Which addresses your question.

I’m not gonna answer that because that goes beyond the point I was making.

> In that case, what do you do with the life of someone who says they're not suffering?

Re: More than 140 Kenya Facebook moderators sue after diagnoses of PTSD

#500

Post by slothtrop »

Eisenstein wrote: post #415
slothtrop wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not making assumptions. Google notoriously operates in this fashion -- for instance unless you are a very popular creator, youtube functions like that. Their copyright takedown system has been around for many years and wasn't contingent on AI. It's a "take-down now, ask questions later" policy to please the RIAA and other lobby groups. Illegal/abuse material doesn't profit big business, their interest is in no…

> Their copyright takedown system has been around for many years and wasn't contingent on AI. So what? It could rely on tea leaves and leprechauns, it illustrates that whatever automation works will be relied on at the expense of any human staff or process > it 99% likely violates their terms of use, in which case there's nothing to say. Isn't that 1% the edge cases I am specifically mentioning are important and won'…

lol "important". You're free to flock to some other platform that better caters to extremists.
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