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Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

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Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#491
post #274

The media's binary separation of populations into vax and unvax is a false dichotomy. More causal factors would be represented by: 1. Covid-recovered 2. Vaccinated 3. Partly-vaccinated ( CDC reporting bundles #3 and #4. UK reports all 4 categories separately. #1 was already a high percentage in 2021 and is now higher due to Omicron. Edit: CDC estimated pre-Omicron #1 as 146 million people (as of Oct 2021), https://ww…

Good breakdown. I'd propose further breaking out of each category based on whether the person is immunosuppressed (for example from medication given to organ transplant recipients) or otherwise immunocompromised.

Yes, someone else mentioned 7M people in the US. This group is usually prioritized, e.g. for boosters.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#492
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rather think of vaccination as a responsibility toward your fellow citizens, rather than a "choice". This belief might be to blame for many of society's crises. https://trendguardian.medium.com/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale...

> I rather think of vaccination as a responsibility toward your fellow citizens We also have data and prudence and we are long past the point where framing this in that manner is highly morally questionable to put it mildly. Your idea of responsibility to society is mandating that young healthy people take an injection(s) ostensibly to protect them from a disease they are at no great risk from, negative side effects…

[deleted]

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#493
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why you care if others get the vaccine if it does not stop the spread and new mutations as we saw with the recent variants I’m fully boosted etc. I don’t think it’s fair to compare it to Polio

It greatly reduces deaths, which is the point of a vaccine: https://twitter.com/OurWorldInData/status/148607668061993779...

No post body was provided.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This response is actually an example of what I'm talking about. The comment that I replied to was explaining how the segment of the population that is a candidate for giving themselves covid while being high risk is (and has been) shrinking out of existence. Meanwhile, there is a much larger (and growing) cohort that continues to be harrased if they (fairly) decide they don't need these vaccines, and the harrasment i…

Why doesn't someone make the point that 95%+ (or 98%+ etc) of Americans are protected via natural immunity or vaccines and back it up with data? Once that point is made, the discouraging natural immunity argument can stop because hospitals can't overfill anymore. However until that point can be made[0] I think the "don't encourage natural immunity" position will prevent the most deaths. By the way, I also don't condo…

https://covidestim.org/us has estimates on the percentage of people ever infected by state. I looked at MA, NY, and CA, and they all hover around 80% (with error bars). I can't find a cumulative US estimate.

I have no idea how they came up with the estimate, but the site is maintained by reputable institutions, so I am inclined to believe these numbers unless proven otherwise.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#495

Good article here about "endemic" and the still large problems that portend: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00155-x > The word ‘endemic’ has become one of the most misused of the pandemic. And many of the errant assumptions made encourage a misplaced complacency. It doesn’t mean that COVID-19 will come to a natural end. > In other words, a disease can be endemic and both widespread and deadly. Malaria kil…

Something can be endemic and deadly and still something we accept the consequences of without government imposed restrictions. For example: HIV is something that is now endemic and (still) deadly. And yet we don't go around forcibly shutting down gay bathhouses, bars, and Grindr and implementing condom and prep mandates, even though they would be effective at reducing its spread. And for good reason: it'd be a massiv…

It's not the fact that it's red tribe coded, it's the fact that the arguments against these things started from very stupid places.

Mask and vaccine resistance is stupid tribe coded, even if now there might be some valid reasons for talking about it. Stupid tribe and red tribe do happen to overlap, but it's the stupid part that upsets people so universally, not the red part.

Also, HIV is not even remotely as contagious as SARS-CoV-2, so it's not really a fair comparison. We absolutely would have shut down whatever we needed to if HIV were airborne.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#496

(USA point of view) I feel like given that vaccines do an acceptable job at reducing risk of hospitalization and death, there is only really a few things worth discussing, in relevant order: - Are hospitals actually being overloaded by covid cases to the point of being an issue (according to many, yes. but according to [1] Johns Hopkins, no, or only in some cases?). - Are the unvaccinated actually the majority of the…

> Are unvaccinated hospitalizations significantly worse compared to other personal decisions (diet, exercise, risky hobbies). I mean, clearly, yes. Those, in themselves, never (or at least virtually never) cause sudden exhaustion of hospital capacity. Now, many covid cases, particularly unvaccinated cases, have some sort of lifestyle problem as a comorbidity, but that's not really the point.

It's not obvious to me.

As an example, lets say hospitals have a capacity of 100, 40 of the capacity is generally taken up by non-lifestyle factors, 40 is taken up by various lifestyle factors (things that could have reasonably been avoided from a better diet, exercise, or otherwise), and the remainder is left as buffer. Now, lets say covid takes up 25 capacity, which now overflows hospitals by demanding 105 capacity. Why is this new lifestyle factor (not getting a vaccine) obviously worse than the previously accepted and accounted for lifestyle factors?

Is it the ease of avoidance? 3 jabs and you're done? If so, what about the injuries we accept that could be avoided entirely through inaction (sports, motorcycles, whatever)?

Is it the magnitude? Looking at covid as a single factor, it could be argued that it has far greater impact than any other individual lifestyle factor. but that information sure hasn't come up in any discussion I've seen. It's always left as an exercise for the reader.

Is it the suddenness? Covid sure has been a shock to the system that it was unprepared for, but that's only true through the lens of comparing pre-pandemic to current moment. Looking at the current state, it's no longer sudden. The existence of covid is now known, and so is hospitalization needs. Now it's just a question of capacity, not suddenness.

I'm not saying the point can't be argued, but it's certainly not obvious to me. And if every discussion is left as "it's obvious, why can't you see it", the discussion won't go anywhere.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#497
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cigarette use kills 480000 people every year in the US alone. 300 billion dollars estimated to be spent per year with treatment of smoking-related illness. I don't want even to look at the numbers of the more critical epidemic on the US: obesity and metabolic diseases. By arguing that "the unvaxxed" are a burden and that they deserve discrimination, you are opening the gates for those arguing that smokers should be f…

We already have discrimination in medical care its called 'triage', unfortunately it doesn't involved removing care once granted. We also charge smokers more for health care due to the burden they put on the system, yet another form of discrimination. You're also making the naive mistake of relating a stable system (smokers with health issues) with an unstable system (covid patients). These two types of systems have…

>We already have discrimination in medical care its called 'triage', unfortunately it doesn't involved removing care once granted.

Based on seriousness of the case, not really on whether it was preventable in the first place. For extremely limited resources like organs there is consideration of future risks, but that isn't really the same thing.

>We also charge smokers more for health care due to the burden they put on the system, yet another form of discrimination.

So let insurance adjusters charge different rates for vax/unvac'd people covered by insurance like they do for smokers.

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#498
post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do it all the time. You are mandated to get a license to drive a car so that you don't have a higher chance of killing people.

Not on private property you don't need a license. Similarly, a business on private property should be able to dictate a mask or vaccination isn't required. You shouldn't have a right to dictate what kind of consensual conduct happens on private property. In Texas, I can get hammered, drive a car drunk without a license behind a fence 10 feet next to the highway (property-side). And there's not a damn thing you can le…

That's not totally true. This Texas-based DWI defense attorney says:

> The police can arrest you if they have probable cause to do so for driving under the influence. Even if you are operating your motor vehicle on what you believe is your own property, the police still may have probable cause to believe your conduct is a threat to yourself or others. Therefore, you should not assume that you are completely safe from arrest or conviction if you are driving drunk on your own property. - http://jackpettit.com/blog/dwis-and-drunk-driving-on-private...

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before COVID vaccines, Republicans on average trusted pharma way more than Democrats. In general, distrust in pharma is the effect, not the cause, of anti-vax sentiment. I don’t know what’s going on in your specific case. I suspect you are comparing the health risk of vax to not vax, instead of the risk of vax to COVID, which is the comparison you should be making since everyone is going to get omicron eventually, bu…

I already got Covid. If you spent a little less time assuming other people's positions (and their motivations), you might find the space to hear them instead.

Same boat as Andrew. I've already had Omicron. I'm also at a healthy weight, take all recommended supplements and exercise. According to mainstream sources natural immunity is basically the same as the vaccine if not better. The war is over, people just haven't realized it yet.

> On the whole, studies found that the efficacy of infection-induced immunity was about the same as what you’d get from a two-dose mRNA vaccine, and sometimes higher.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-omicron-upended-wha...

Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates

#500

(USA point of view) I feel like given that vaccines do an acceptable job at reducing risk of hospitalization and death, there is only really a few things worth discussing, in relevant order: - Are hospitals actually being overloaded by covid cases to the point of being an issue (according to many, yes. but according to [1] Johns Hopkins, no, or only in some cases?). - Are the unvaccinated actually the majority of the…

> - Are the unvaccinated actually the majority of the covid related cases (as far as I'm aware, yes). They needn't be a majority. The mandate acts to reduce strain on the hospital, so ask whether it achieves that (I think the answer is yes) > - Are unvaccinated hospitalizations significantly worse compared to other personal decisions (diet, exercise, risky hobbies). It is harder to fix these than getting a jab. > - F…

I mean fixing this stuff now will help us "flatten the curve" in the next pandemic.
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