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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#491

Post by seabird »

arepublicadoceu wrote: post #401
seabird wrote: post #301

It's really rich when these types get riled up about software having very obvious flaws. I respect the author and really want to like Wayland, but there's big things missing. I recently installed Fedora after my Windows install bombed out after an update. I went to play World of Warcraft with my buddies and found that the mouse handling in Wayland was pretty severely broken, at least for WoW. You move by clicking bot…

You can't play World of Warcraft well under wine and you call this one of your two big things? The second being, screen sharing broken for you. Well, for me it works really well, maybe you didn't google hard enough? Now I suggest you to google extremely hard on how to make x11 handle displays with mixed DPI. A way more common usecase than running World of Warcraft though a compatibility layer AKA Wine. If you find a…

You ignored two really important parts of my comment.

>"I said "whatever, it's a good thing I don't play too much WoW" and made peace with what it was."

and

>"I'm not going to suffer through some software that I actually need to use under WINE having fucked up mouse handling,"

I can't even play video games properly for the two hours a week that I do it. I'm not waiting for an actual headache to crop up.

When using X11, I don't have to make compromises. I have better things to do with my time, and I'll reconsider in three to five years when the situation is hopefully more stable. Mixed DPI sucks on X11, but at least works to some extent, even if pretty shittily. Worst case, you can just buy compatible monitors, like you have to do with GPUs when you're considering Wayland support/stability.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#492

Post by danhor »

b93rn wrote: post #382
DCKing wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

Yeah Sway looks really appealing to me since i'm already using i3wm. But every now and then i'm searching if screen sharing on MS Teams already works. As a Software Engineer in this pandemic i rely a lot on screen sharing. But every time i search for it i find out that it still does not work (without a work around). That's basically the only thing that holds me back. Does anyone know if Sway or Wayland is trying to f…

xdg-desktop-portal-wlr works (with a bit of cli work) with MS Teams in chromium with a flag to enable pipewire. The Desktop app will only support it when the Electron release containing pipewire support releases & gets used in Teams.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#493

Post by boudin »

throwaways885 wrote: post #278
boudin wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reverse is also true. Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine. You make a lot of assumptions there but the reality is often much more nuanced. Everything changes, all the time, that's a rule that is true for absolutely everything in life.

And people wonder why Linux isn't popular outside of industry and hobbyists... Like, sure, maintainers can tell all their users to sod off, but don't be surprised when very few people are left around using your software, and especially don't get confused when companies refuse to invest in Linux ports. All the successful projects Linux users like to talk about nowadays (gaming now a practical thing, new kernel feature…

What does it even mean? Communities build what they need for their usecase and in this regard it's highly successful. It might not be your usecase but then, you can decide to create your own community and build it or look somewhere else. But it's not because something do not work for you that it's not successful.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#494

Post by oconnor663 »

R0b0t1 wrote: post #459
_coveredInBees wrote: post #137

So many comments here are missing the point of the rant. If it doesn't work for you, fine, move on. But it takes a special type of asshole to go around harassing maintainers and continuously putting down their hard work and in many cases just making overly broad and incorrect generalizations or propagating outright lies. There is a big difference between constructive criticism and what drove the author to write that…

He's saying, literally, > So my new approach is “fuck you”. None of the Wayland detractors have a clue. Lumping everyone who may not have a rosy view of Wayland together. There's a good comment by an (alleged) pentester mentioning how Wayland doesn't really buy you that much. He's right. The bigger issue is lack of isolation within a gid. I can still debug your terminal and try to get your root password.

> Blanket lumping everyone who may not have a rosy view of Wayland together.

I think it's a lot closer to the author's intent to read the post as "here's what I'm experiencing" rather than "here's a category view of the world that I want you to endorse". Obviously a statement like "no one in [group] understands [thing]" is never going to be 100% true. When people say things like that, they're venting.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#495

Post by arepublicadoceu »

zamadatix wrote: post #464
arepublicadoceu wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't play World of Warcraft well under wine and you call this one of your two big things? The second being, screen sharing broken for you. Well, for me it works really well, maybe you didn't google hard enough? Now I suggest you to google extremely hard on how to make x11 handle displays with mixed DPI. A way more common usecase than running World of Warcraft though a compatibility layer AKA Wine. If you find a…

Pure Wayland (no xwayland) sway user here. Screen sharing is a pain, I did get it working on Arch finally though, but it's still a pain at this point. And I only got "screen" sharing i.e. not "app sharing" or "monitor/virtual-monitor sharing" working. Latter part could well be some more config or tweaking I need to do, regardless it's not the users fault if they can't figure this out in Wayland when it works fine eve…

To be honest, it was not a complete dismissal on being able to run wow under wine.

In my opinion neither x11 or wayland is perfect both brings huge amount of pain. Whereas wayland brings the least amount of pain for my usecase and shows the only prospect of improvement.

If I were a sensible person I would just use windows with wsl where’s absolutely everything just works as intended and there’s no tugwar. But I’m too stubborn for that and I hope I will one day install Linux and everything just works without having to do a extensive research for compatibility and workarounds

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#496

Post by regularfry »

folkrav wrote: post #346
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an amateur developer, I've often found that "Why would you want to do that?" is followed by an explanation of a much better way that I hadn't even thought of. Unfortunately in my experience it is often followed by an explanation of why what I'm trying to do isn't what I should want to do, as though I am not aware of my own goals and constraints.

You'd probably get the same question from a plumber if you asked him how to plug a pipe in a non-intuitive way. He has no way to know your pipes are laid out in a strange way, and the only spot you have left to add said junction without redoing your plumbing is back there - unless you tell him. Sure, some people are assholes, but that's just people. Nobody's in your mind, they can't guess your requirements, thought p…

In my experience, "why would you want to do that" is dismissive, defensive gatekeeping, typically used to imply that the questioner is an idiot, whereas "why do you want to do that" extracts a reason, bad or not, that can be worked with.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#497

Post by spion »

No, Wayland is not currently usable for the "vast majority" of people.

Anyone that has a high DPI display and/or NVIDIA card and uses most of the popular Electron based apps or Chrome will have a bad experience.

Not saying Xorg is any good, or the scaling decisions in Wayland are bad. Just that its not objectively possible to switch away from it yet, for a large number of people

See e.g. https://www.reddit.com/r/swaywm/comments/d2qqtk/yet_another_...

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#498

Post by thu2111 »

floatboth wrote: post #453
Conan_Kudo wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Linux kernel team does not preserve ABI in almost all scenarios, just only specifically with the syscall interface. Everything else is not stable. The GNU C standard library has binary backwards compatibility going back 20 years. They take great pains to preserve that. Are you thinking of glib instead of glibc? The former is from GNOME, and the latter is not.

"Syscall interface" is what most people mean by "$SYSTEM's ABI"

These days half of Linux is exported via filesystems, IOCTLs and other random pseudo-syscalls. Ignoring drivers, of course. The kernel isn't really that stable.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#499

Post by barrkel »

foldr wrote: post #244
barrkel wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can; but they shouldn't expect a life free of complaints. Commercial software, like most things in life, is responsive to incentives. The people who buy things get the most say in the product. For open source where the end users aren't buying anything, and the developers are either creating product for their own gratification, or for some more nebulous corporate goal, the incentives are rather indirect. And that…

>but they shouldn't expect a life free of complaints. This seems to be the dominant culture, but it's actually pretty toxic that people feel entitled to whine about software created by people who owe them absolutely nothing. Constructive feedback is useful, and appropriate if the creator indicates that they want it. Whining and ranting is a waste of energy. It makes people feel bad and leads to no beneficial change.…

> This seems to be the dominant culture, but it's actually pretty toxic that people feel entitled to whine about software created by people who owe them absolutely nothing.

I don't think that's quite right. It's certainly bad manners to be rude, but the underlying complaints are one of the better - if not best - means by which the people who make the software can get feedback to ensure they're building the right thing.

Would you invest in a startup whose founders constantly complained about how their potential users whined about their product?

Aside from auxiliary revenue sources like complements and consulting, open source software has value in large proportion to how many people use it. Reputation and goodwill, if nothing else, bragging rights, job opportunities, and so on. You don't get these things from writing software than isn't used.

And you can't really expect everyone to provide constructive feedback. Often, the more emotional the rant, the more pain the user is feeling. Not all humans are dispassionate rational agents. Not every user is a professional product manager able to outline constructive incremental improvements to satisfy requirements. And it's silly to expect that. Product managers are paid well in industry to do this. Doing it for free for open source is just as much a donation.

I'll go further. If you're not willing to tolerate more and more rants as your software gets more popular, to the point that you end up not contributing or quitting, it might be better if you didn't start. Abandoned and decaying software hurts too, and it especially hurts the people who took a bet on it.

(I learned my lesson young. I created a few bits and pieces of open source, and quickly found the the effort of integrating the contributions of third parties more work than it was worth. The only way I'd do open source again is as a developer outreach / organization halo PR strategy for the benefit of a company I'm being well compensated to work for.)

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