EU countries team up for semiconductor push • Hacker News Board

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#491

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #487

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Labour laws are a nightmare in every country due to bureaucracy but that doesn't mean it's always difficult to fire people. Most companies be it in FR, DE, wherever, have good lawyers on the payroll to advise them o the easiest legal path possible to get rid of undesirable employees. If a company really wants you gone, they'll make it happen one way or another. France was famous for their approach of making an employ…

> If a company really wants you gone, they'll make it happen one way or another. Well they usually do it by compensating the employee quite heavily. Psychologically torturing an employee isn't that good for team morale, even if the employee was underperforming. I also don't think it's as culturally prevalent as you imply.

>Well they usually do it by compensating the employee quite heavily.

Where outside of the US/UK does that happen? Never heard in Europe that you get paid more so you leave when they can boot you out for free and I talked to lawyers about this. The reasoning behind the generous safety nets in Europe is also to make it easier for employee-employer terminations in case it doesn't work out. The laws here are that employers aren't allowed to abuse you, force you into unpaid overtime, etc. but fire you for free they can otherwise nobody would dare become an entrepreneur/investor in an environment where it's impossible to fire someone.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#492

Post by yvdriess » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:08 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #241

yvdriess wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It does make it baffling why Intel is unable to produce 5nn chips with the same ASML machines TSC is using. It must be management failing Boeing style. ASML machines do not produce chips, they're just ones doing the etching. There is a ton around what you do with it, and how all the rest of the chip is produced. They don't come with pre-programmed transistor gate templates. Each fab company has its own libraries of…

ASML never did etchers

I stand corrected, I mistakenly thought that was part of the lithography machine.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#493

Post by corty » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:10 PM UTC

eecc wrote: post #441

rgblambda wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>the English language can become the lingua franca with less resistance as it is no ones language(Well, there are the Irish but it's a small country). Malta also has English as an official language, though again, it's an even smaller country. On the other hand, in neither Ireland or Malta is English the "first" official language.

Malta used to be an UK colony, hardly surprising. Problem is more the cultural divide between Germanic and Latin ethics that continental Europe is split across... although Germany itself is heavily Catholic and is paradoxically the least German of all the northern lot. (Not sure if I explained myself good enough)

Germany is roughly 1/3 catholic (south and west predominantly), 1/3 protestant (north) and 1/3 atheist (east). Regional specifications are very rough, often there is actually a village-by-village variation between catholic and protestant due to cuius regio eius religio in the middle ages. Atheism/agnosticism/dontcare is on the rise roughly everywhere, but has a head start in the east/GDR due to GDR politics.

And I guess you mean to say germany has gone farthest in christianisation, with the least of old german or old norse cultural remains? I guess that might be true.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#494

Post by pasabagi » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

FooBarWidget wrote: post #461

cromka wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wondering if in the light of this announcement and the China's attempts at taking over the TMSC control, wouldn't it be better if TMSC relocated their HQ to Europe? Not saying they should move completely, but to strategize to limit their operational risks. I am sure they'd receive some nice grants from EU.

China taking over TSMC control. How, exactly? China isn't looking to invade Taiwan any time soon, unless America puts bases in Taiwan first. And an invasion of Taiwan would immediately result in the destruction of TSMC, thus invasion is not a viable strategy to gain TSMC.

Seems to me like a scenario where a pro-china party moves Taiwan closer to China, until it is essentially re-integrated, is basically inevitable if China continues to grow at its current pace.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#495

Post by joelbluminator » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #491

joelbluminator wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a company really wants you gone, they'll make it happen one way or another. Well they usually do it by compensating the employee quite heavily. Psychologically torturing an employee isn't that good for team morale, even if the employee was underperforming. I also don't think it's as culturally prevalent as you imply.

>Well they usually do it by compensating the employee quite heavily. Where outside of the US/UK does that happen? Never heard in Europe that you get paid more so you leave when they can boot you out for free and I talked to lawyers about this. The reasoning behind the generous safety nets in Europe is also to make it easier for employee-employer terminations in case it doesn't work out. The laws here are that employe…

I live in the Netherlands. After 3 years (used to be 2 years up until very recently) a worker has to be moved to a permanent contract. That makes firing a person very difficult.

> when they can boot you out for free

You can't really. It's extremely difficult and no lawyer can magically change the fact that the culture and the courts are in favor of the worker, not the employer.

Now the laws might change a bit, making the terms of termination a bit easier for the employer in the future (we'll see what the next government brings), but in general I expect it to still be quite difficult. So it may be easier to pay the employee 30K extra compensation to let him go then trying a game of psychological torture. And if that sounds unreal to you, know that in the Netherlands employees can get paid up to 2 years if they have a nervous breakdown. And nervous breakdown is quite common culturally. So employees have dirty tricks of their own if the employer wants to play dirty.

Now of course, there are obvious disadvantages to this approach, not necessarily for the employer actually. The employer can protect himself by simply not hiring anyone for more than a couple of years, making "flex work" a real problem in NL. But yes, firing could be hard and I'd be surprised if it's much different in Germany/France etc.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#496

Post by 908B64B197 » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:21 PM UTC

eldaisfish wrote: post #480

908B64B197 wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> differing bureaucracy and language being two of the most significant It has never been cheaper and easier to operate in several languages. Seriously, translation and internationalization is as cheap as it can get (and most folks in Europe are at least bilinguals!). What they need to focus on is a unified marketplace and harmonized regulation. Now each tiny country has it's special snowflakes regulations (how to acc…

I get the feeling you're European. Language is a massive barrier and simply hand-waving that away by claiming that internationalisation is cheap is silly. Language drives a whole host of things and operating in several languages is far from easy. You are also being very generous with claiming that most folks in Europe are bilingual. They may have basic knowledge of multiple languages but can likely function fully in…

> It ultimately boils down to language. This is why a Greek doctor can't just move to Germany. Also why a Spanish lawyer can't easily move to Sweden. Language is a much bigger problem than people here seem to think.

These are all customer service positions (you get a prefix in front of your name but still).

That matters less with tech. You'll have a localized sales team/customer support sure, and that adds expenses, but it's not a huge burden.

Dealing with a huge amount of paperwork, taxes, special local laws of the N jurisdiction you're operating in, now that's a barrier to entry.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#497

Post by madeofpalk » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

haram_masala wrote: post #197

madeofpalk wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you just answered the question why people wouldn't want to move to such a country. From the outside, America does not portray itself to be a particularly stable or desirable place to live.

I'm sure it does if you read Russia Today and Xinhua.

How's the US response to COVID-19 going?

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#498

Post by renewiltord » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

They're not going to get anything from this. When federations attempt stuff like this, each participant will want something out of it besides the final product. i.e. they'll want some phase of manufacturing to be done at home. This will break them.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#499

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:32 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #495

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Well they usually do it by compensating the employee quite heavily. Where outside of the US/UK does that happen? Never heard in Europe that you get paid more so you leave when they can boot you out for free and I talked to lawyers about this. The reasoning behind the generous safety nets in Europe is also to make it easier for employee-employer terminations in case it doesn't work out. The laws here are that employe…

I live in the Netherlands. After 3 years (used to be 2 years up until very recently) a worker has to be moved to a permanent contract. That makes firing a person very difficult. > when they can boot you out for free You can't really. It's extremely difficult and no lawyer can magically change the fact that the culture and the courts are in favor of the worker, not the employer. Now the laws might change a bit, making…

>the fact that the culture and the courts are in favor of the worker

As much as I like being on the side of the little guy, in any civilized society, the courts should be impartial and not favor the employer nor the employee and pass verdicts based on the law and not based on the culture and if the law says you can fire someone who continuously underperforms over a period of time then that law will be applied.

>After 3 years [...] a worker has to be moved to a permanent contract.

That sounds pretty poor IMHO. In most of the EU you're permanent after passing the first year of employment. I've never worked more than 3 years in a place so far, so in the NL I would have never reached permanent status, continuously being at the risk of on the spot termination. I dunno man, sounds pretty bad for me IMHO.

>And nervous breakdown is quite common culturally.

That actually sounds legit bad IMHO if mental issues are the becoming the norm in employment relationships.

>The employer can protect himself by simply not hiring anyone for more than a couple of years, making "flex work" a real problem in NL

I used to work for a top NL based company and this situation was often discussed around the office that NL companies are abusing expat workers from poorer countries by promising them riches in exchange for hard work and sacrifice and instead using them for 2-3 years then rotating them with new workers until they get fed up with this and move back to their home countries. Rinse and repeat. Sounds really good for Dutch business though.

Re: EU countries team up for semiconductor push

#500

Post by corty » Wed, Dec 09, 2020, 9:32 PM UTC

eldaisfish wrote: post #480

908B64B197 wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> differing bureaucracy and language being two of the most significant It has never been cheaper and easier to operate in several languages. Seriously, translation and internationalization is as cheap as it can get (and most folks in Europe are at least bilinguals!). What they need to focus on is a unified marketplace and harmonized regulation. Now each tiny country has it's special snowflakes regulations (how to acc…

I get the feeling you're European. Language is a massive barrier and simply hand-waving that away by claiming that internationalisation is cheap is silly. Language drives a whole host of things and operating in several languages is far from easy. You are also being very generous with claiming that most folks in Europe are bilingual. They may have basic knowledge of multiple languages but can likely function fully in…

Even if a bunch of Europeans from different countries do talk in perfect english, understanding every word, cultural differences will make true communication hard. The style of work, management and relationships is just too different. And you just can't give everyone 20 cultural awareness courses...