Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#491

Post by bt4u » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 8:14 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #384

bt4u wrote: post #345

You don't stop. Not if you want the girl. Movies, friends and family have taught us otherwise. You have to fight for the girl, right? And it works! You know, I have a friend who, when she goes out, she always tell the guys she has a boyfriend. She doesn't really. She just wants to weed out the weak men not willing to fight for her. This is not some stupid bimbo either, she has a PhD. And she's not the only one of my…

Single-purpose accounts (which this one appears to be, given its history) are not allowed here, especially not for an ideological agenda about a divisive topic. We have therefore banned this account. If you don't want to be banned on HN, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you want to use the site as intended, i.e. for intellectual curiosity, not political battle. We detached…

Nice joke

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#492

Post by floodyberry- » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 8:15 AM UTC

deegles wrote: post #156

auganov wrote: post #106

"Apologies" like Chris Sacca's [0] don't make you too hopeful. Often I have committed as their first limited partner and encouraged them to use my name and participation to attract other investment. I’ve introduced them to my fund’s most loyal investors and made sure they have had the opportunity to make their case rather than get lost in an inbox. I’ve also connected them to our trusted service providers saving them…

What would be enough to you?

"The billionaire who exploited his wealth and position to engage in and perpetuate consequences free garbage bro culture said sorry like 5 times, what more do you people want?"

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#493

Post by morgante » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 8:18 AM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #197

tuna-piano wrote: post #129

Wow, this seems terrible. For these women (and from the sounds of it, many more) to always have to second guess if an investor likes them for good business reasons or whether it's just because they're pretty. To always dread meeting a new business contact, knowing there's a small but substantial chance he'll make some awkward comment. Some thoughts: 1. Is this more common in silicon valley than elsewhere? (I've never…

Also want to reply to #4. The thing that differentiates the sexual harassment in most of these cases is that there's a power imbalance. Being hit on becomes much scarier if declining might jeopardize your job or your startup's funding.

Does that mean that powerful men should never hit on women?

A rich and powerful VC is almost always going to have more power than any woman he meets. Even if they're not actively raising money or trying to get a job, he's still a powerful man who could someday offer those things.

I'm not trying to be trite here, but I really do wonder what the line is. Even as a man, I certainly pay attention to my interactions with powerful men (investors, CEOs) despite not currently trying to get something from them. If they hit on a woman in that scenario, would it be harassment?

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#494

Post by epalmer » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 8:20 AM UTC

dkarl wrote: post #44

rl3 wrote: post #7

This entire article is a smorgasbord of cringe: > During the recruiting process, Mr. McClure, a founder of 500 Startups and an investor, sent her a Facebook message that read in part, “I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit on you.” One would think having the phrases "hire you" and "hit on you" in the same sentence when communicating with someone undergoing recruitment at your company would be…

I think cringe is the wrong word. We cringe when we watch The Office and see people make social mistakes without meaning to. These are not unwitting social mistakes. This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Furthermore, not having met any of these people but speculating based on my experience, I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one ti…

I wonder how many people in power or have strong influence are psychopaths or sociopaths. I've had the misfortune to observe a psychopath in the workplace and in this case they touch people a lot. They touch people of the opposite sex more than same sex but they touch a lot of people. I wonder what is being said behind closed doors.

I have friend who is an employment lawyer. When I first asked her what she does she said "I keep old white men out of trouble". How sad.

Edit fixed typo

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#495

Post by RodericDay » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 8:21 AM UTC

ubernostrum wrote: post #467

watwut wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Are you trying thay rape culture is a thing and dudes really need special courses on how to not be harassers? That does not describe or culture or majority of dudes in any way. Our culture is full of signals that harassment is wrong. It is also quite unlikely that people who climb the ladder and successfully play "impress investors and people around" social skills game are so clueless magically when they are al…

dudes really need special courses on how to not be harassers? Given the many first-hand accounts of ordinary everyday harassment and men who flat-out do not seem to understand what is and isn't inappropriate, or what the words "no" or "I'm not interested" or "leave me alone" mean, yes, it does seem there is a significant population for whom this type of basic education is absolutely and vitally necessary. Think of it…

Actually what we need is a huge corrective in media, the stuff feminists complain about all the time.

e.g. bell hooks' film stuff, The Bechdel Test, Anita Sarkeesian's work, etc.

This problem forms in large part because men are too attached to media that reinforces notions of women as secondary people, objects, and reward trophies.

The problem is that people's empathy with women going through harassment abruptly stops when they themselves are implicated in some manner.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#496

Post by peteretep » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 8:22 AM UTC

fjfkdjfjfjd wrote: post #489

This is a little off-topic so mods, please flag/move as needed. (Wasn't sure if I should make this an Ask HN or not). I feel I may be a victim of a false accusation of sexual harassment. I am really not sure how to proceed at this point. I have not put up a fight for fear that I could loose my job (which may already be in the works at this point). Management has not used the term "sexual harassment", only the verbiag…

Take legal advice, not HN advice.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#497

Post by bt4u2 » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 8:23 AM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #484

likelynew wrote: post #478

I don't know if it is appropriate to say, but I think overt preference in hiring females is one of the biggest cause. Almost every tech company hire women with less qualifications to improve the the diversity. I know it is for the best, but in personal experience, it is very spoken thing between some males. Few interpret inside their head that the females are for them. I think it is evident even in snippets of this a…

> I don't know if it is appropriate to say, don't. don't don't. > but I think overt preference in hiring females is one of the biggest cause. nope. inappropriate. > Almost every tech company hire women with less qualifications to improve the the diversity. Wrong Wrong Wrong > I know it is for the best, but in personal experience, it is very spoken thing between some males. It isn't. >"I was getting confused figuring…

Why are comments like this allowed? Putting fingers in your ears and scream "no!!!" over and over is not very useful or constructive

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#498

Post by plinkplonk » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 8:24 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #493

jakelazaroff wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also want to reply to #4. The thing that differentiates the sexual harassment in most of these cases is that there's a power imbalance. Being hit on becomes much scarier if declining might jeopardize your job or your startup's funding.

Does that mean that powerful men should never hit on women? A rich and powerful VC is almost always going to have more power than any woman he meets. Even if they're not actively raising money or trying to get a job, he's still a powerful man who could someday offer those things. I'm not trying to be trite here, but I really do wonder what the line is. Even as a man, I certainly pay attention to my interactions with…

"A rich and powerful VC is almost always going to have more power than any woman he meets."

It means that he should be very careful in doing so, and in any case never do this in the course of his work - e.g: in the course of negotiating with entrepreneurs, or even co-workers.

I suspect that if this happened in a non work situation, it wouldn't gather this amount of outside attention. Would a tech VC, hitting on a TV anchor or an actress(say) be considered inappropriate, if he has nothing to do with the media business?

I genuinely don't know. But I suspect if he keeps his love life separate from work, things would get tremendously easier.I think "power imbalance" becomes a factor only when a working relationship is involved.

Still, interesting question. I think it behooves anyone who has significant money and/or power to be very careful in conducting their love lives.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#499

Post by phlakaton » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 8:24 AM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #430

adamsea wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intellectual consistency would require acknowledging the systematic repression of women in western history (not being able to vote, etc), and thus, the effects of what is still a patriarchial culture as often as not. In other words, your argument attempts to ignore simple historical facts which you can verify easily on Wikipedia.

Where did I ignore that? I called their behavior reprehensible. I'm just saying that it's unlikely the behavior exists in a vacuum and that things are never as black and white as they're made out to be. Historical oppression doesn't justify questionable behavior. I've seen many instances where women have "dated up" to help their careers. I even saw one instance where a female director dated the CTO and later the CFO…

I disagree. It's quite possible the behavior was completely unsolicited and uninvited. Things are sometimes exactly as wrong as they appear to be. To assume otherwise, with no evidence other than your own anecdotal experience, is... well, pretty much sexist!

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#500

Post by watwut » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 8:25 AM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #481

watwut wrote: post #440

> a volunteer organization who went directly from "I don't think I can see a movie tonight" to "This situation is making me uncomfortable" with nothing in between. She tried to tell you gently in the way girls are taught to reject men while still being nice to them. If you reject dude other way, some tend to t get insulted anyway. You did not get it, so she informed you flat out about how she really think about the s…

Communications that are subtle and ambiguous are highly likely to be misinterpreted, and it is not reasonable to assume that the recipient reached the intended conclusion. Depending on what the above poster meant by escalating to "This situation is making me uncomfortable" I may or may not agree with the above commenter's statement that the person being approached acted irrationally. If the person being approached fo…

I assumed literal "you are making me uncomfortable" - I think it is best to go with what parent wrote. The "you're harassing me with repeated advances after a rejection" does not sound how real people talk.

I also think that saying whatever gets the person away is rational - through it might be rude in context. I mean, you assume that saying something insulting or exaggerated is irrational, but that is not how we judge rationality in other contexts.

My experience was that when collegues started bullshit (not harrasment but they had many jokes about women targeted at me), being nuanced and nice and "rational" did not made situation better. Just longer while they had fun and I definitely did not. Answering in hostile rude way right away turned out to work much better - issue largely ceased to exist.

I think that the expectation that women should be the nice one is what creates a lot of problems. It is teaching girls ineffective communication (which leaves them thinking only two options are HR or leave). People on the spectrum honestly don't get nice, people who test boundaries don't see nice as boundary and jerks find nice funny.