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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#481

Post by hypeit »

eej71 wrote: post #476
locallost wrote: post #466

My views on the situation aside, the clearest I saw anyone communicate the issues from a global angle was the former French prime minister Dominique de Villepin Translated here: https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1718201487132885246 Viewed from the angle of the West, I think the message it needs to avoid isolating itself from the world is very unusual for Western media and important. Quote: "Westerners must ope…

I think the premise of "the law of retaliation is a moral dead end" is just a high minded pathway to endless violence and anarchy.

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#482

Post by eej71 »

pphysch wrote: post #450
StriverGuy wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Hamas have to adhere to an ICJ ordered ceasefire?

Hamas/Al-Qassam Brigades outright said today that they would willingly comply with a ceasefire order.

I think its reasonable to expect the same level of adherance to such a ceasefire that was also in place prior to Oct 7th.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#483

Post by adriand »

sebzim4500 wrote: post #391
seydor wrote: post #360

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Both of these numbers pale in comparison to the civilian losses of Germany in WWII, and the Allies are not generally considered to have performed a genocide. Clearly the absolute number of casualties (not even civilian casualties in this case, that is allegedly more like 15k) is not sufficient on its own to define a genocide.

Don’t forget that these international laws and treaties were born out of a desire to prevent the horrors of WWII from occurring again. Lots of actors in that war including the Allies did terrible things that are prohibited by those laws. The genocide laws, as I understand, came about as a result of the Holocaust, but the use of WMDs against civilian targets (eg destroying a city with nuclear weapons) would not be legal either.

Given this historical context, we don’t need to “whatabout” with the Allies. Surely we can agree that we do not want a repeat of WWII.

In terms of whether Israel’s actions constitute genocide, we have yet to find out. Are they grossly disproportionate compared to Oct 7, and appalling in terms of their destruction of civilian life and property? I believe yes, and whether or not that is “genocide” is, to me, somewhat besides the point. Making it stop NOW is the point!

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#484

Post by aaron695 »

hypeit wrote: post #363
shepherdjerred wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please share your sources

Like the parent says, these have all been widely reported on. I think we have to come into this conversation with a base level of the events that are going on before commenting.

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#485

Post by tda »

Aunche wrote: post #245
aaomidi wrote: post #77

I do think that their future Feb ruling is going to call for a ceasefire. If they called for one now, Israel & especially the US were just going to ignore it and reduce the power of the court. Israel has created a beast that I don't think they can control themselves. I do think that the court is going to get more legitimacy after they explicitly tell Israel to __chill__, for Israel not to chill, and then get the ceas…

> I am so deeply disappointed in the Biden administration here. What do you expect him to do? With or without any assistance, Israel has more than enough weapons completely annihilate Gaza. Don't forget that they likely have nuclear capabilities. Israel believes they are demonstrating restraint and this restraint is the first thing to go if Israel feels like it's being backed into a corner.

I am not so sure. I believe Israel only exists by the mercy of support from their Allies. The minute they lose that support Israel is doomed. The country is surrounded by enemies on all sides. Sure their military could win a conventional war with their nukes against any of their neighbors. But on the long term a small country with a small population and limited natural resources needs friends to run an economy big enough to support the huge military it needs to defend itself. And Israel is running out of friends fast. Sympathy for Israel in the West is surely declining at lightning speed with the current situation, I would not be surprised if this conflict is the start of the end of the country

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#486

Post by voisin »

robertoandred wrote: post #247
voisin wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have read a bit about this and I understand the explanation but I still don’t understand how a group of people subject to genocide can turn around and a few generations later be behaving in many (obviously not all) of the same ways toward another group. I would think that if anything the Israeli people would have some empathy and try to find a two state solution that exists in peace.

Eliminating Hamas is not genocide though. Pretending that war is a video game only helps their propaganda.

I refer in my comment to the impact to non-Hamas Palestinians. Eliminating the terrorist organization of Hamas is not controversial (at least in my mind), but the civilian casualties to regular Palestinians seems to be indefensible (again, at least in my mind)

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#487

Post by smoothjazz »

zmgsabst wrote: post #448
smoothjazz wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The raw number of people killed isn't indicative of a genocide, it's intent and actions against a specific population. Over 1.5 million (out of 2 million) Gaza residents are displaced and facing starvation. Almost all of the hospitals in Gaza have been destroyed. Many would say Israel is committing genocide and the court today said they will continue the investigation because it's plausible.

That alone doesn’t amount to a genocide: - They’re displaced because there was active fighting in their homes. - Hospitals were destroyed because they were being used as military outposts. Neither of those violates the rules of war, though Hamas using hospitals as outposts is a war crime. I think it’s a tragedy the government of Gaza brought this disaster down upon them by committing war crimes against their stronger…

Hamas was not using hospitals as outposts. That's been debunked time and time again.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#488

Post by tgv »

Animats wrote: post #98

There is another player. China is interested in resolving the Gaza conflict.[1] China's position is that, since the existing world order, the International Court of Justice and the United States, can't resolve this, China should become involved. Chinese container shipping lines COSCO and OOCL have suspended trade with Israel. China has already provided some aid to Gaza.[2] Gaza has a sizable coastline, and China has…

China would only get involved to extend their influence. China is very much tit-for-tat. But who will grant them anything in return? None of the neighboring countries likes the Palestinians. Egypt even holds the border closed.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#489

Post by rabidonrails »

voisin wrote: post #6

Perhaps I am unlearned in this area but I am unclear why the Jewish state, after its people experienced the atrocities of World War II, would act in this manner toward the Palestinians. Can anyone shed light on this? I understand completely the need to rid the world of Hamas terrorists, but in the process they have shown a reckless disregard (to put it mildly) for Palestinian people and their wellbeing.

First you need to understand that there's no genocide here. Genocide actually means "the murder of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."[1] There is no question that the Israelis are not trying to kill everyone in Gaza and definitely not specifically because they are a part of an ethnic group.

Additionally, they have not shown "a reckless disregard for Palestinian people" and they would argue that unlike other conflicts in the region (Syria, Yemen, Kurdistan) they've been incredibly efficient in trying to avoid or limit civilian death.

Still, Gazan's have been dealt a pretty raw deal in that they have been ruled by a terrorist organization which has repeatedly stolen their aid to push their own agenda, and living amongst neighboring countries Egypt, Jordan, that are afraid to take them in lest they bring instability to those governments. Note that in the beginning of this conflict the Egyptians wouldn't open the Rafah border to allow refugees.

Rather, many of the holocaust survivors would instead say that the Israelis are being too nice and not defending the people living in the country from a government in Gaza that has the following in it's charter: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" and "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees."(https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)

[1]https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/eng...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#490

Post by LegitShady »

throwaway587 wrote: post #279
voisin wrote: post #6

Perhaps I am unlearned in this area but I am unclear why the Jewish state, after its people experienced the atrocities of World War II, would act in this manner toward the Palestinians. Can anyone shed light on this? I understand completely the need to rid the world of Hamas terrorists, but in the process they have shown a reckless disregard (to put it mildly) for Palestinian people and their wellbeing.

This is a question you need to ask Jewish people, not HN. The response you'll get here obviously won't answer this question, because the people responding are either not Jewish, or the format doesn't lend itself to a genuine answer. But, a mistake you make in asking the question is two-fold, one - the Holocaust was not a lesson taught to Jews so they'll learn empathy. It was something horrible and traumatic that was…

>This is a question you need to ask Jewish people, not HN.

Please don't tell people to harass random jews wherever they live about political stuff they aren't involved in. Thanks.

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